Off-peak ticket validity Heyford to Paddington

[keefc]

My wife was charged a penalty fare recently. She bought a off-peak return from Heyford to Paddington (with a student railcard).

The trains were the 07.41 from Heyford and 16.52 from Paddington (both journeys change at Oxford). The ticket was purchased from the Trainline and she travelled to the itinerary she entered when she booked the ticket. (The inspector was not interested in this.)

Subsequent checks show the same ticket is available via the GWR app and the Network Rail website also gives this off-peak ticket. I do know off peak tickets are not valid on the 16.52 to Oxford (two stops before Heyford).

Can we assume her ticket was fine? And if so, is there anything we can say to the inspector to prove this?

Thanks,

Keith

 

[yorkie]

Penalty Fare is invalid.

Don't just appeal it, report a breach of consumer law to the ORR and remind them that they are required to investigate consumer law breaches.

Off Peak ticket validity depends on the restriction code, which will be different for different origins/destinations, however some GWR RPIs just go round thinking all Off Peak tickets are not valid on particular trains

Also saying you have an itinerary from Trainline/Trainsplit etc holds no water with them; if anything it makes them want to charge you even more. Some of their staff at Paddington have been extremely disparaging about third party retailers. I've seen it all before sadly.

It's been going on for years and I see no sign of them stopping.

Trainline should back you up. Contact them too.

 

[keefc]

Penalty Fare is invalid.

Don't just appeal it, report a breach of consumer law to the ORR and remind them that they are required to investigate consumer law breaches.

Off Peak ticket validity depends on the restriction code, which will be different for different origins/destinations, however some GWR RPIs just go round thinking all Off Peak tickets are not valid on particular trains

Also saying you have an itinerary from Trainline/Trainsplit etc holds no water with them; if anything it makes them want to charge you even more. Some of their staff at Paddington have been extremely disparaging about third party retailers. I've seen it all before sadly.

It's been going on for years and I see no sign of them stopping.

Trainline should back you up. Contact them too.

Thank you for this good advice. And funnily enough the inspector did make defamatory remarks about Trainline...but this is a battle my wife looks likely to have every week. Previous inspectors have backed down. Not this one though.

 

[Hadders]

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour from GWR.

If they cannot issue Penalty Fares correctly then the DfT should suspend their Penalty Fares scheme until appropriate training has been given to all members of staff authorised to issue Penalty Fares.

This is absolutely nothing to do with a complex or broken fares system. It is sheer incompetence.

It really needs exposing properly. If GWR has any decency then a manager reading this thread should contact you directly and sort the matter out.

 

[M28361M]

Your wife travelled out and back on the same day, so I assume it is an Off Peak Day Return (price £18.95 with a railcard)? This has restriction code O7 which is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 07:10" so is perfectly valid on the trains she used.

If the ticket is in the new-style layout, it should have on it a link to nationalrail.co.uk/O7 which shows the restrictions - however if the RPI won't accept an itinerary from an accredited ticket booking site, they are unlikely to accept that link either. I agree with the previous posters that an urgent complaint to GWR is in order.

 

[keefc]

Your wife travelled out and back on the same day, so I assume it is an Off Peak Day Return (price £18.95 with a railcard)? This has restriction code O7 which is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 07:10" so is perfectly valid on the trains she used.

If the ticket is in the new-style layout, it should have on it a link to nationalrail.co.uk/O7 which shows the restrictions - however if the RPI won't accept an itinerary from an accredited ticket booking site, they are unlikely to accept that link either. I agree with the previous posters that an urgent complaint to GWR is in order.

That is indeed the ticket. It is an e-ticket (Heyford has no machine). I cannot see that restriction as part of the ticket or the e-mail conformation (both Trainline and GWR). But it is possible I am looking in the wrong place.

All the replies have been very helpful. Thank you.

 

[furlong]

First of all, there is a process you have to follow if this was a Penalty Fare to appeal against it. Instructions had to be provided when it was issued. You need to read the regulations and then set out, with evidence (such as the documentation from thetrainline) the grounds for your appeal, namely that a valid travel ticket was, in fact, presented.

5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

16...(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—
(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

 

[keefc]

First of all, there is a process you have to follow if this was a Penalty Fare to appeal against it. Instructions had to be provided when it was issued. You need to read the regulations and then set out, with evidence (such as the documentation from thetrainline) the grounds for your appeal, namely that a valid travel ticket was, in fact, presented.

I may have used the words Penalty Fare loosely (a quick Google shows). The inspector tried to charge her the full peak single ticket from Paddington to Heyford (a 'penalty fare' but perhaps not
a 'Penalty Fare' in the way those more familiar with the terminology would see it). After some debate she received the student discount. No request was made for names and address etc.

Apologies if this caused confusion. The fact the ticket was valid and was incorrectly challenged stands of course.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along shortly, but given that your wife held a valid ticket but was required to buy a new one, that means that one of the tickets wasn't used. Logically, that was the new ticket, and she should get her money back.

The easy way to resolve this is to ask for a refund on the unused ticket. If it was for travel less than 28 days ago, you have a right to do this, but the railway is entitled to charge a £10 administration fee. I want to recommend that instead your wife should make a complaint and ask that GWR make a full refund but (a) I'm not sure this is the right way to go about things, and (b) I'm not sure of the mechanism to use (is there a page on GWR's website? Will an email work or do you need to go to a ticket office?).

 

[bkhtele]

I would write to FREEPOST Great Western Railway customer support (yes that is the address) explain what happened requesting a full refund & some compensation e.g. a free ticket anywhere on the GWR network. Include the used tickets & retain a copy of everything. You might want to get proof of postage at the post office. A letter from them confirming the off peak journey you regularly do as valid would be helpful.

 

[keefc]

I would write to FREEPOST Great Western Railway customer support (yes that is the address) explain what happened requesting a full refund & some compensation e.g. a free ticket anywhere on the GWR network. Include the used tickets & retain a copy of everything. You might want to get proof of postage at the post office. A letter from them confirming the off peak journey you regularly do as valid would be helpful.

In fact the post here was after a complaint was made. But the e-mail response indicated that GWR saw the words Oxford and off-peak and did not read the complaint properly. So this problem look deep rooted.

(My wife's letter mentioned Oxford because a staff member there, when she changed trains and complained, told her rightly that the ticket was fine and his colleague should not have asked her to pay again. The GWR response says the man giving this advice was wrong!)

 

[yorkie]

(My wife's letter mentioned Oxford because a staff member there, when she changed trains and complained, told her rightly that the ticket was fine and his colleague should not have asked her to pay again. The GWR response says the man giving this advice was wrong!)

This is quite typical and normal for them. I wouldn't trust anything GWR customer service staff, ticket office or gateline staff at Paddington or GWR RPIs say about ticket validity as being true; they are often wrong. There is a huge cultural problem and management are either unwilling or unable to address it.

 

[Western Sunset]

If you don't get anywhere, try emailing Mark Hopwood (MD of GWR) [email protected] or telephone 01793 499425

 

[GarethW]

Take photo of the RPI and post to Twitter.

Seems to have the desired effect in other circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

Take photo of the RPI and post to Twitter.

Seems to have the desired effect in other circumstances.

Not always; some train companies apparently have a policy of refusing to engage with people who do this (though of course that would not get th company out of their liabilities to refund the customer, nor negate the fact they are liable for breaching contract and consumer laws).

But there are so many GWR staff that act this way it's not just a rogue RPI. It's absolutely a systematic , deep rooted cultural problem within the company.

I won't go into any of the detail here but if anyone wishes to join us at a forum event, such as our popular forum meals, I'll be happy to go into more detail.

 

[gray1404]

Just to check where is is up to:

Was the Ops wife required to buy a new ticket or did they receive a penalty fare (or both)?

Has the wife submitted an appeal against the wrongly issued penalty fare yet? This is separate to any complaint to GWR she wishes to make.

Be careful then using trainline to book tickets. They often charge booking fees which most other booking sites don't. In fact if GWR allow this ticket to be purchased, buy it from them as it is good evidence to have in the event of any dispute. That the train company that you purchased the ticket from is also giving you problems using it.

 

[keefc]

Just to check where is is up to:

Was the Ops wife required to buy a new ticket or did they receive a penalty fare (or both)?

Has the wife submitted an appeal against the wrongly issued penalty fare yet? This is separate to any complaint to GWR she wishes to make.

Be careful then using trainline to book tickets. They often charge booking fees which most other booking sites don't. In fact if GWR allow this ticket to be purchased, buy it from them as it is good evidence to have in the event of any dispute. That the train company that you purchased the ticket from is also giving you problems using it.

To answer this:
My language was loose. She was asked to buy a new peak ticket. No penalty fare if by that a fine is implied.

The staff at Oxford told her that the ticket was valid and issued her with a claim form for the new ticket. I guess GWR did not look at it properly and just saw off peak and Oxford and rejected it. So I thought I would check it was valid here.

We like the Trainline app. It works well and does not charge a booking fee on the day for this ticket. I accept using the GWR app might smooth matters. But that seems to punish Trainline and reward GWR for a problem created by the latter.

 

[Nicholas43]

... I assume it is an Off Peak Day Return (price £18.95 with a railcard)? This has restriction code O7 which is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 07:10" so is perfectly valid on the trains she used...

Why does that linked BR Fares listing include a huge raft of "Unpublished restrictions" which are far more restrictive?

 

[yorkie]

Why does that linked BR Fares listing include a huge raft of "Unpublished restrictions" which are far more restrictive?

Because there hasn't (yet) been a class action claim against the train companies for doing this, so they think they can continue to breach contract and consumer laws to the detriment of both retailers and customers alike.

 

[Nicholas43]

Because there hasn't (yet) been a class action claim against the train companies for doing this, so they think they can continue to breach contract and consumer laws to the detriment of both retailers and customers alike.

Gosh, thanks. Is it possible to say why, in this instance, (some?) journey planners (honorably?) ignore these "unpublished" restrictions? Is there another thread (or somewhere else) where I can read more about "unpublished" restrictions in general?

 

[jawr256]

National Rail seems to think the OP's ticket isn't even valid on the 16:52 even though as far as I can see it doesn't even fall foul of any of the unpublished restrictions listed on the BR Fares page.

Am I missing something?

 

[Western Sunset]

The GWR website appears to show it's valid.....

 

[M28361M]

Why does that linked BR Fares listing include a huge raft of "Unpublished restrictions" which are far more restrictive?

Not sure - My understanding is that the unpublished restrictions exist mainly for electronic journey planners to know which trains are valid for that ticket. They are supposed to reflect the restriction code exactly but I know it doesn't always happen.

Just noticed something else about that BRFares page, the "Summary" of ticket restrictions (which I think is the text some ticket vending machines display during the purchase process) says:

Outward Journey
Summary: VALID BY ANY TRAIN ARR LDN OR KPA AFTER 0959 M-F

Return Journey
Summary: VALID BY ANY TRAIN WITH SOME PM EXCEPTIONS

Which is very different to what the O7 restriction code text says. (KPA is Kensington Olympia)

 

[Western Sunset]

The £18.95 fare (with Railcard) is shown as valid on the National Rail site

 

[jawr256]

The £18.95 fare (with Railcard) is shown as valid on the National Rail site

Looking at it again, National Rail seems to claim it is either valid or invalid depending on which other service I pick to compare validity to - even though it is meant to be comparing the same ticket. I also did a search for Heyford - London (All stations) where it offered the Off-Peak Day Return with the itinerary on the 16:52 from Paddington, yet the same search for Heyford to London Paddington would not allow the Off-Peak Day Return to be selected with that itinerary.

I guess another thing to chalk up to NRE bugs.

 

[bkhtele]

I checked yesterday & the GWR site was showing it as valid.

 

[gray1404]

This is why it's always important/advisable when travelling on a ticket you think you might have problems with (rightly or wrongly) to book it if possible with the company you are most likely to have problems with and if in accordance with an itinerary produced at the time of purchase then even better.

 

[furlong]

No need to mess about in cases like this. Failure to accept a valid ticket is a straightforward breach of the company's Franchise Agreement. You already gave the company the opportunity to acknowledge its error and make amends, but it has refused to do so, so your next step might be to report the breach to the DfT, copied to Mark Hopwood, inviting the DfT to issue a breach notice and work with the company to find a solution that avoids both the original breach and the subsequent "customer services" failure from ever happening again.

From the TSA:

10-1 THE OBLIGATION OF THE OPERATORS TO CARRY PASSENGERS
(1) Fares in respect of which the Operators are bound
An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

And from an existing Breach Notice for another company:

Failure by the Franchisee to abide by the obligations of the TSA is a breach of the Franchise Agreement.

Even an isolated breach of the franchise agreement is still a breach that can be reported to the DfT for action. If your own efforts at getting the company to correct the problem informally have seemingly failed, invoke the formal procedure whereby it becomes the DfT seeking agreement on corrective action to make amends and avoid further breaches.

 

[Western Sunset]

This is why it's always important/advisable when travelling on a ticket you think you might have problems with (rightly or wrongly) to book it if possible with the company you are most likely to have problems with and if in accordance with an itinerary produced at the time of purchase then even better.

It's a sad state of affairs when a customer has to anticipate problems with their ticket purchase.

 

[keefc]

As the OP, I thought I would follow up on a few points.

First, looking at the small print on the BRFARES website suggests there are small windows that allow the return ticket to work. Indeed there are two other return trains which although nationally at 'peak' time seem to allow this. The GWR site seems to suggest this is true.

Second, it would seem prudent to book through GWR to miminse arguments. Although this strikes me as encouraging the anti-competitive stance of the ticket inspector.

In terms of getting the money back, GWR have not responded to the details the posters here have provided yet. So thanks for the suggestions on how to escalate.