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LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

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rdlover777

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I could be wrong but hasn't this article been widely panned for being riddled with factual inaccuracies? The RMT reported their concerns (which seem justified) but the Mirror have cribbed off that and then turned it into a "SHOCK HORROR" expose? For instance the £8bn is the cost of the IEP programme not how much it will cost to fix any issues?
i know Richard of Rail Magazine had made a tweet rebutting the Mirror's artical
https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1188745920906698752
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I could be wrong but hasn't this article been widely panned for being riddled with factual inaccuracies? The RMT reported their concerns (which seem justified) but the Mirror have cribbed off that and then turned it into a "SHOCK HORROR" expose? For instance the £8bn is the cost of the IEP programme not how much it will cost to fix any issues?

Indeed.
Are these faults any different, or worse, than those experienced by GWR for its near-identical fleet over the last couple of years?
It's difficult to believe that the build quality of the two fleets would be very different.
Is there any difference between the problems on the trains assembled variously in Japan, Italy and the UK?
Design/production faults are of course down to Hitachi (except things specified by DfT, eg the seats!).
Also the record is that the specification of these trains and the shape of the contract to build them was developed by Labour before 2010.
Greenhouses and stones come to mind.

The line that the faults "could cost £8 billion" is complete tosh - that will be the lifetime cost of the whole contract.
If the RMT is grumbling about Hitachi's IEP trains, what do they think about CAF's design and production efforts for Northern/TPE, or Bombardier's for TfL/GA?
I wonder if an election is imminent...
 

rdlover777

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Indeed.
Are these faults any different, or worse, than those experienced by GWR for its near-identical fleet over the last couple of years?
It's difficult to believe that the build quality of the two fleets would be very different.
Is there any difference between the problems on the trains assembled variously in Japan, Italy and the UK?
Design/production faults are of course down to Hitachi (except things specified by DfT, eg the seats!).
Also the record is that the specification of these trains and the shape of the contract to build them was developed by Labour before 2010.
Greenhouses and stones come to mind.

The line that the faults "could cost £8 billion" is complete tosh - that will be the lifetime cost of the whole contract.
If the RMT is grumbling about Hitachi's IEP trains, what do they think about CAF's design and production efforts for Northern/TPE, or Bombardier's for TfL/GA?
I wonder if an election is imminent...

I do actually wonder what RMT think of GA's FLIRTS, given how there has been problems with the 755s lately
 

Antman

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Saw this headline appear on my feed this morning while on HS1, im honestly shocked about this

Mods are free to merge this with an existing thread or delete it, i couldn't find any other threads here about this so i thought i post it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/leaks-new-hitachi-east-coast-20731266
Given the journalist can’t even get the name of the units right. This is just usual Mirror nonsense. Fed to them and just regurgitated as part of their anti Tory agenda. The IEPs aren’t great, but it’s crackers to blame a conservative government for something that the civil service under labour designed. But it’s the mirror... what else do you expect ? It’s not absorbent enough to wipe with - it’s just as bad as the Sun...
 

Sleeperwaking

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FWIW the windowless seats on Pendolinos are near-always the last to go.
I always avoid windowless seats on a Pendo because the tilting can make me very nauseous - it's noticeably better if I can see outside (my favourite option is a forward facing seat next to a window in one of the pantograph vehicles). They're also quite claustrophobic due to the increased bodyshell taper to permit tilt, which could drive people towards a window seat. So, not necessarily comparing like with like.

From what i have seen, nobody unless it's out size baggage like a Cello or such like ever goes and dumps there large cases in the DVT as they all want it near them, and most people would not know there was a luggage van on Mk4, HSTs or anything else.
Actually, my 'cello used to fit quite neatly into the overhead luggage racks on a Mk4, so neatly I nearly left it behind a couple of times (very grateful that each time some other passenger flagged it to me). I've only ever used the DVT for bike storage, didn't even cross my mind that they could be used for over-sized luggage, so I agree with you there.

I should make more of an effort to try out one of the 80Xs - only done a short hop from Doncaster to Leeds so far, which wasn't long enough to make any sort of judgement.
 

dubscottie

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I always avoid windowless seats on a Pendo because the tilting can make me very nauseous - it's noticeably better if I can see outside (my favourite option is a forward facing seat next to a window in one of the pantograph vehicles).

What you describe is regular travel sickness. I cant see how a pendo tilting can make you feel ill. All trains on going round curves at speed should make you ill then also.

It is more likely something else. I got mad headaches when the 220/221 were first introduced. The Irish 22000 units have the same effect for some reason.
 

ohgoditsjames

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6:37 800109 Shipley to KX this morning was a disaster. Sat at the platform for 21 minutes whilst Northern services to Leeds pass by then an announcement is made that there’s a technical fault with the doors and that it’s suggested to get off and get on one of the Northern services only of course we couldn’t get off because the doors wouldn’t open! Then the doors finally open and everyone gets off only to be told it’s now ok to leave. Then we set off and an announcement is made that doors in 2 carriages were causing the issue and have now been locked completely.

Connection at Leeds missed!
 
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jimm

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Given the journalist can’t even get the name of the units right. This is just usual Mirror nonsense. Fed to them and just regurgitated as part of their anti Tory agenda. The IEPs aren’t great, but it’s crackers to blame a conservative government for something that the civil service under labour designed. But it’s the mirror... what else do you expect ? It’s not absorbent enough to wipe with - it’s just as bad as the Sun...

The design of the trains was signed off after Labour left office. The coalition government ordered a review of the IEP project in 2010, in case you have forgotten - and the details of the interiors were settled at an even later date, e.g. work on a mock-up took place in 2013 https://www.dca-design.com/latest/iep-super-express-mock-under-construction-dca

The Mirror article is indeed hyperbolic nonsense but will probably pale by comparison with some of the things we are going to be subjected to over the next few weeks of electioneering.

What you describe is regular travel sickness. I cant see how a pendo tilting can make you feel ill. All trains on going round curves at speed should make you ill then also.

It is more likely something else. I got mad headaches when the 220/221 were first introduced. The Irish 22000 units have the same effect for some reason.

How each person's body behaves is not set in stone and being able to see something of the outside world is a factor in whether or not some of us feel queasy in certain situations.

I don't usually get seasick but in very rough weather I sometimes do when I am stuck inside a ship and can't see what the waves are doing. Get to a window or observation deck where I can watch the sea and my body understands what's going on and can anticipate the ship pitching up and down and I feel right as rain. So I know exactly where Sleeperwaking is coming from when it comes to windowless seats on a Pendolino.

A lot of work went into working out the effects of tilt on top of canted track - the APT-P tilted to 9 degrees and caused a lot of complaints about motion sickness during its brief career in passenger service. Most trains now seem to tilt to no more than 8 degrees, which seems to strike the right balance for most people even on top of track canted by up to 6 degrees.

Getting back on topic in terms of 80xs, plenty of people seem perfectly happy on GWR services to sit in the windowless seats with their laptops and tablets to get largely reflection-free viewing, or have a snooze on a morning commute - and dire warnings here about luggage on West Country holiday trains when IETs took over don't seem to have become reality this past summer. Or maybe the prophets of doom all went on holiday elsewhere, so couldn't tell us how right they were.
 

Goldfish62

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Getting back on topic in terms of 80xs, plenty of people seem perfectly happy on GWR services to sit in the windowless seats with their laptops and tablets to get largely reflection-free viewing, or have a snooze on a morning commute.
That is indeed true. However, GWR doesn't allow seat self-selection and will randomly allocate windowless reserved seats. One of my guard friends has been subjected to several rants from unhappy passengers about this. I doubt if anyone has actually ever complained about having a window seat.

Also, seat selection is only available on LNER's desktop website. Book by any other means and you don't know where you're sat until you turn up (yes, I know people can look at the seat diagram, but that doesn't help if you can't change the seat).
 

Sleeperwaking

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What you describe is regular travel sickness. I cant see how a pendo tilting can make you feel ill. All trains on going round curves at speed should make you ill then also.

It is more likely something else. I got mad headaches when the 220/221 were first introduced. The Irish 22000 units have the same effect for some reason.

How many times have you vomited, out of interest?

Both of you clearly know my own body better than I do then. *eye roll* In any case, I'm a railway engineer not a doctor. I travel A LOT by train, long distances to meetings. I only have this issue on Pendolinos, particularly going north to Glasgow where it gets nice and curvy through the Lake District (where possible I'll catch the TPE 350 / 185 service instead, on which I have NO PROBLEMS). Next time I'm on a Pendo, breaking out into a cold sweat and feeling seriously ill to the point where the only option is to close my eyes and fervently hope that either I can doze off or that it doesn't get worse for the remaining 1 hour of my journey, I'll be sure to tell myself it's all in my imagination because two people on the internet told me it wasn't possible for tilt to cause travel sickness.

How each person's body behaves is not set in stone and being able to see something of the outside world is a factor in whether or not some of us feel queasy in certain situations.

I don't usually get seasick but in very rough weather I sometimes do when I am stuck inside a ship and can't see what the waves are doing. Get to a window or observation deck where I can watch the sea and my body understands what's going on and can anticipate the ship pitching up and down and I feel right as rain. So I know exactly where Sleeperwaking is coming from when it comes to windowless seats on a Pendolino.
Thank you! I didn't realise I was making such a radical statement.
 

hexagon789

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I'll be sure to tell myself it's all in my imagination because two people on the internet told me it wasn't possible for tilt to cause travel sickness.

It can, a study suggested that it affects people also prone to sea sickness around 20%. It was in one of the better railway magazines, might still have the issue.
 

sjoh

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At Kings Cross earlier and I noted there was an Azuma on the Glasgow run. I wasn't aware they'd cleared them that far yet! How long have they been going to Glasgow for?
 

swt_passenger

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At Kings Cross earlier and I noted there was an Azuma on the Glasgow run. I wasn't aware they'd cleared them that far yet! How long have they been going to Glasgow for?
23rd of September, according to earlier posts in this thread.
 

ComUtoR

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Or poor design.

In what way is it a 'poor design' A potentially life saving precaution has been made and is now part of the safety procedures. Just as turning off the juice prevents electrocution, this is just another safety step. I'd be interested to know how the system could have been designed differently.
 
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Or poor design.
Or maybe, it’s because going under a train that is electrically live is not particularly hazardous - but, the damage a human body does to a train (especially at 125mph) and the panels it can rip off, could expose a live system.
I can remember the fire brigade being astonished they’d never been told the 3 phase jumpers on a HST had 415v through them unless the train supply was turned off, when they had a familiarisation walk round one.
 

800001

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At Kings Cross earlier and I noted there was an Azuma on the Glasgow run. I wasn't aware they'd cleared them that far yet! How long have they been going to Glasgow for?

They are cleared for the whole lner route.
 

Marton

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Also, seat selection is only available on LNER's desktop website. Book by any other means and you don't know where you're sat until you turn up (yes, I know people can look at the seat diagram, but that doesn't help if you can't change the seat).
Works fine on the mobile for me.
 

92002

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Or maybe, it’s because going under a train that is electrically live is not particularly hazardous - but, the damage a human body does to a train (especially at 125mph) and the panels it can rip off, could expose a live system.
I can remember the fire brigade being astonished they’d never been told the 3 phase jumpers on a HST had 415v through them unless the train supply was turned off, when they had a familiarisation walk round one.
Azumas have been operating to Glasgow since 23/9/19.
Does Glasgow to London, then go York and back then back to Glasgow.
 

westv

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I think the problem with the standard class seats is that they both hard and too upright. The 1st class seats recline and I find those fine.
 

class26

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I think the problem with the standard class seats is that they both hard and too upright. The 1st class seats recline and I find those fine.

Completely agree. I tried the first class on arrival in Kings X after everyone was off the train and at first the seat was not much better than standard until i sussed out the recline . then it`s markedly better and that demonstrates the point you make that the standard is just too upright
 

Jozhua

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Was attempting to get a TPE 802 on my recent trip to Newcastle, but knew my chances were slim so when I was offered an advance fare with an LNER leg between York and Newcastle I jumped at it!

Here's my review of the IET 801:

Before the train even arrived a display of how busy each carriage was showed up, which is really handy! Only seen that kind of tech deployed on Thameslink.

The train is pretty good looking, I quite like the aesthetic as a whole, looks very futuristic.

Inside it has a new car smell which is super unusual for a train! Seat reservations on the wall was working well, very visible lights and easy to understand. Interior as a whole was super light and airy, overhead lighting is very nice indeed. Do appreciate the LNER interior touches, carpeting and seat colour is on brand and premium feeling.

Space saving toilets are super good and bright, having bright lighting is important for a toilet as when it is dim, gives a very gross and unclean impression. Having two right next to each other is a lifesaver!

One thing though, I used to think everyone was whining about the seats and didn't get what the fuss was about. But yeah, they're basically glorified ironing boards. The headrests are decent enough but not amazing. However, they definitely beat bus Pacers and to be honest on the basis of legroom, probably 220's and 390's. Honestly, the issue could be fixed with half a centimetre of packing foam.

In terms of performance the acceleration is wierdly strong for a big heavy mainline train, does feel like a metro/subway coming out of stations. Very quick to hit 125mph. The low windows on the doors really give a sense of speed! Noise is super acceptable even near the end of coaches.

Overall, 8.5/10. Great train, just bring some packing foam to rest your back on :lol:
 

55002

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Azumas have been operating to Glasgow since 23/9/19.
Does Glasgow to London, then go York and back then back to Glasgow.

It doesn’t, 2 separate units. 1530 Glasgow is formed off 1000 from Edinburgh. The 0648 from Glasgow switches to Leeds runs once arrived at Kings Cross.
 

800001

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It doesn’t, 2 separate units. 1530 Glasgow is formed off 1000 from Edinburgh. The 0648 from Glasgow switches to Leeds runs once arrived at Kings Cross.

Also to add, the unit the does the York return goes on to work 1S27 the 1730 Kings - Edinburgh.

Expect Diagrams to change again from end of november as Inverness joins the Diagrams.
 
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