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Chaos at Eastbourne this afternoon (04/11)

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jon0844

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Bus drivers don't need to read a message while driving. They just need to look at a device when stopped at a railway station bus stop where a passenger is claiming that ticket acceptance is in place. This should take seconds and for most occasions, would likely only need to be done once.

Indeed. The first person who says there's disruption and they've been told there's ticket acceptance should prompt the driver to check.

If a load of people get on then there's either a massive conspiracy to defraud, or there might just be some truth in it!

I know in the past around here (Hertfordshire) Uno drivers had no radio (they were expected to use their mobiles) but now they have the new Ticketer system I am sure they can be alerted very easily.

I've heard of Arriva drivers refusing, despite tens of people trying to board, but Arriva has a terrible reputation locally for a number of reasons. It is frustrating when Arriva run so many buses that would be invaluable during rail disruption.
 
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RichardKing

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Indeed. The first person who says there's disruption and they've been told there's ticket acceptance should prompt the driver to check.

At Polegate yesterday evening, there was a very large group of passengers (some of whom had been waiting 2-3 hours for a replacement bus) attempting to use the local buses. Despite this, some drivers still claimed not to be aware of the ticket acceptance. For those who aren't familiar with Polegate, there is a bus stop next to the station, so the driver would've seen the signs of major disruption.
The main problem was that as there was no clear attempt to ensure ticket acceptance was communicated with the bus drivers early on into the disruption (not directly GTR's fault, I know), this resulted in passenger numbers gradually building up until the peak-time commuters started returning to the coast, where things reached breaking point. No wonder the BTP were on site.
 

jon0844

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In such circumstances, I'd pay to travel and make a claim for a refund.

Rather that than be stuck at the bus stop for ages because some bus drivers think they know best. Seeing crowds of people and not taking time to call their control seems ridiculous.
 

Deepgreen

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In one way or another, GTR have used basically every rail replacement bus in their area over the last 10 days or so, and particularly the last 24 hours. It was pretty much impossible to source any more for this incident.



No more than if the interlocking was renewed but kept local. And, in this case, having it located centrally was something which meant it was fixed more quickly, as replacement components were put on trains which were still running and transferred that way. Had the defective components been at Eastbourne, replacements would have been transported by road in the evening peak, and you’d be looking at a few hours of disruption yet.



The issue has been resolved for now, yes. Hopefully the system won’t do the same thing again.
Why wouldn't it do the same thing again? Edit - seemingly it did!
 

Bald Rick

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Why wouldn't it do the same thing again? Edit - seemingly it did!

Slightly different failure second time round.

The nature of the first failure was unprecedented - I’ve never known it happen in my long time on the railway.
 

Snow1964

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Bus drivers don't need to read a message while driving. They just need to look at a device when stopped at a railway station bus stop where a passenger is claiming that ticket acceptance is in place. This should take seconds and for most occasions, would likely only need to be done once.

that’s not a very customer friendly approach to make the passenger explain the ticket acceptance, surely should be station staff (or stranded train crew) hopping on bus and checking driver knows
 

nickswift99

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that’s not a very customer friendly approach to make the passenger explain the ticket acceptance, surely should be station staff (or stranded train crew) hopping on bus and checking driver knows
Many stations will be unmanned and as the trains are disrupted the TOC may not be able to source transport to get staff to these stations.
 

apinnard

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Slightly different failure second time round.

The nature of the first failure was unprecedented - I’ve never known it happen in my long time on the railway.

So basically the controller modules work in 2+1 redundancy, but in this instance all 3 modules failed?

That must be a pretty rare occurrence. I work in a lot of data centres and even in the world of I.T it is quite rare for the active, passive and spare kit to fail simultaneously.
 

jon0844

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that’s not a very customer friendly approach to make the passenger explain the ticket acceptance, surely should be station staff (or stranded train crew) hopping on bus and checking driver knows

Many bus stops aren't near stations, and I am sure people want staff on stations - not walking up the road and jumping on and off every bus.

Plus if a driver isn't believing there's acceptance in place, why would they believe rail staff? They'd still insist they need to be told by their control.
 

carriageline

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So basically the controller modules work in 2+1 redundancy, but in this instance all 3 modules failed?

That must be a pretty rare occurrence. I work in a lot of data centres and even in the world of I.T it is quite rare for the active, passive and spare kit to fail simultaneously.

Close. They have 3 modules. They work on a voting system. When they are asked to do something by the signaller, they vote to decide whether it’s safe (99.99% it is!) if one of them disagrees, it blows its internal fuse and the other 2 limp on. If you end up down to 1, then you have no interlocking.

3 of them dying at once is very rare, I would possibly say this is the only time it has ever happened? Someone more clued up will know.
 

Bald Rick

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Close. They have 3 modules. They work on a voting system. When they are asked to do something by the signaller, they vote to decide whether it’s safe (99.99% it is!) if one of them disagrees, it blows its internal fuse and the other 2 limp on. If you end up down to 1, then you have no interlocking.

3 of them dying at once is very rare, I would possibly say this is the only time it has ever happened? Someone more clued up will know.

Slight correction (probably in terminology): if one of the MPMs disagrees it doesn’t blow a fuse (in the conventional sense), but it does shut down until ‘rebooted’ or replaced.

However there are fuses protecting them, which can, of course, blow in the conventional sense!

I, too, have never heard of 3 MPMs shut down, or ‘blow a fuse’ at the same time. It’s rare enough that just one goes, I can only remember that happening 2 or 3 times in my time looking after such things.
 

TrainGeekUK

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It wasn't a good day again yesterday with a freight train heading to Tonbridge going bang between Ham Street and Ashford. The line was out of commission for a substantial period of time. Again, southern had major issues getting replacement buses.
 

jon0844

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Now the schools are back, how many replacement buses are there to call upon (along with ready and willing drivers) when this sort of thing happens at short notice?

I wonder how feasible it would be for the DfT to consider having a fleet of buses at strategic locations, although that still doesn't address the issue of staffing them!
 

carriageline

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Slight correction (probably in terminology): if one of the MPMs disagrees it doesn’t blow a fuse (in the conventional sense), but it does shut down until ‘rebooted’ or replaced.

However there are fuses protecting them, which can, of course, blow in the conventional sense!

I, too, have never heard of 3 MPMs shut down, or ‘blow a fuse’ at the same time. It’s rare enough that just one goes, I can only remember that happening 2 or 3 times in my time looking after such things.

Well I never! I was always told they blow their security fuse if they have a disagreement. Every day is a school day!
 

Bald Rick

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Well I never! I was always told they blow their security fuse if they have a disagreement. Every day is a school day!

It’s terminology - the ‘security fuse’ isn’t a fuse as in something that blows with a electrical overload. It’s more a logic thing that triggers the processor to stop. It is often described by the techs as ‘blowing the fuse’ though.

There are, however ‘proper’ fuses as well, as you don’t want too much current in your processors!
 

tsr

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Between the parallel lines
In which case, there needs to be much better communication between GTR and bus companies such as Stagecoach. The Southern social media team were claiming that Stagecoach were accepting tickets, whilst there were many reports (including my first-hand experience) of the drivers not being aware of this ticket acceptance and, as such, charging full fare. I'm aware that this is a Stagecoach issue, but it simply isn't good enough. If GTR are to claim that ticket acceptance is in place, they must make sure that this is 100% accurate.

GTR currently have no regular contact with Stagecoach, as this is managed on their behalf. This may well change soon, but probably isn't likely to help get ticket acceptance in place more quickly, regardless of who communicates with Stagecoach. Unfortunately this is a repeat issue found by passengers, but cannot be verified until someone (be it station staff or passengers) reports it and railway controllers can escalate it. In other words, you can't say what bus drivers are doing from the confines of a railway control room unless a) you have a a controller on the ground or b) eyewitness accounts.

but public transport will only be successful if it works, and if one party doesn't bother to deliver then they both fail.

Isn't it up to the bus company to choose their communications and motivate their staff so that it all works in their part of the country? That's what small locally-focussed business units are supposed to excel at, after all....

GTR generally use Brighton & Hove Buses and Stagecoach for ticket acceptance around the South Coast area. Neither company is at all small or particularly locally-focused, although specific individuals may be.

But there is a difference between GTR telling people it has been agreed, and currently in process of notifying the individual bus drivers

More a failure of communicating correct message, until confirmed notification received.
Can't really assume a text or whatsapp message will be read whilst driving, that is just stupidity by GTR

GTR do not have the time or resources to talk to individual bus drivers on existing service buses, nor do they or (to the best of my knowledge) any other TOC attempt it. To confirm receipt of messages in the area concerned could easily involve hundreds of bus drivers, plus dozens of railway controllers being trained in each bus company's communications equipment and procedures. This isn't going to happen. Controlling bespoke emergency rail replacement is hard enough.

It wasn't a good day again yesterday with a freight train heading to Tonbridge going bang between Ham Street and Ashford. The line was out of commission for a substantial period of time. Again, southern had major issues getting replacement buses.

Buses were resourced practically as soon as the suppliers were asked, sent out within a few minutes of ordering them, and arrived almost to the minute of when they were expected. Replacement buses are rarely an instant solution. There were, however, no difficulties getting replacement buses.

It does also have to be remembered that buses are rather slower than trains on the Marshlink, so smaller stations (Winchelsea, for example) usually have to wait for them to start journeys from Hastings, Rye or Ashford.

Now the schools are back, how many replacement buses are there to call upon (along with ready and willing drivers) when this sort of thing happens at short notice?

I wonder how feasible it would be for the DfT to consider having a fleet of buses at strategic locations, although that still doesn't address the issue of staffing them!

The school run does hinder things overall (massively), though not really on the Marshlink route.
 
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