• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Forbidden from using power socket in station waiting room

Status
Not open for further replies.

mikeg

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2010
Messages
1,743
Location
Selby
Reminds me that next to the bench at the front end of Victoria coach station, there is a sign above the socket stating 'Recharging here is theft'. Not only is the sign inaccurate as it'd be abstracting electricity, albeit contrary to the Theft Act 1968, it probably cost about as much to make as the value of any electricity abstracted by a mobile phone.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Lemmy99uk

Member
Joined
5 May 2015
Messages
459
I think a good question here would be, why was there a trailing cable? It sounds as though the passenger chose, presumably for security reasons, to keep his/her phone close to their person, but the socket was some distance away. Clearly, if there is a trailing cable, there is a safety hazard, irrespective of whether or not a socket is intended for public use or not.
Who was ultimately blamed for the toddler sustaining injury?

The passenger was sitting on a bench using his phone but the wall socket was a few feet away, hence the trailing cable.

No claim was made against the railway for the injury, but obviously I had to carry out an accident investigation. Can’t remember what the root/immediate causes were but the only way to prevent a repeat was to restrict the use of the sockets by the public.
 

daveshah

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2018
Messages
115
Reminds me that next to the bench at the front end of Victoria coach station, there is a sign above the socket stating 'Recharging here is theft'. Not only is the sign inaccurate as it'd be abstracting electricity, albeit contrary to the Theft Act 1968, it probably cost about as much to make as the value of any electricity abstracted by a mobile phone.

In terms of cost, I calculate a 15W phone charger (on the high end) used for an hour at a commercial rate of 12p/kWh would cost about 0.2p. I guess the wear and tear of the socket (particularly the cost of an electrician to replace it) may well cost more than the electricity used...

In which case, criminal damage would surely have a better prosecution case than abstracting electricity!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,521
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In terms of cost, I calculate a 15W phone charger (on the high end) used for an hour at a commercial rate of 12p/kWh would cost about 0.2p. I guess the wear and tear of the socket (particularly the cost of an electrician to replace it) may well cost more than the electricity used...

Which is why no business that has any kind of customer service ethic gives a stuff if people use their sockets to charge a phone. Not allowing it is penny-pinching in the extreme. Wasn't it Ryanair that banned their staff doing so in the office? Says it all.

Electricity for small electronic devices is so cheap that it is basically free. We're not talking about plugging an electric oven into it and doing your Christmas dinner while waiting for the train, or ironing your week's shirts on the way to work.
 

33017

Member
Joined
9 Sep 2017
Messages
273
Which is why no business that has any kind of customer service ethic gives a stuff if people use their sockets to charge a phone. Not allowing it is penny-pinching in the extreme. Wasn't it Ryanair that banned their staff doing so in the office? Says it all.

Electricity for small electronic devices is so cheap that it is basically free. We're not talking about plugging an electric oven into it and doing your Christmas dinner while waiting for the train, or ironing your week's shirts on the way to work.
Quite. I believe it costs less than a penny to fully charge an iPhone from flat. There is no way any potential prosecution would pass the public interest test.
 

Clayton

On Moderation
Joined
15 Apr 2018
Messages
259
Assuming that the socket was not specifically marked "for public use", you should be grateful that you were merely asked to desist from what you were doing and that the official was satisfied that you complied. You could have been reported or arrested for theft (of electricity).
You are joking, I assume. People will generally treat sockets as fair game for charging these days and that’s not going to change - unless they start making phones with better battery life!
 

Trackman

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2013
Messages
2,922
Location
Lewisham
Older sockets on board trains which aren't for public use often aren't properly set up to meet electrical standards, because all they are used for are simple resistive or motor loads (keeping liquids hot or running hoovers) where that doesn't matter. However, for a socket in a mains-connected building to not meet standards would suggest there's something much more problematic going on. Either the socket wasn't set up correctly in the first place, or it has somehow failed. In either case I think there's a public safety problem in having it powered up at all in a public place.
@NotATrainspott thanks, that saved me a post. Great answer. Safety first.
 

AnkleBoots

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
506
Stations are private property.


Wikipedia thinks otherwise:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail#Private_versus_public-sector_status said:
Network Rail owns the infrastructure, including the railway tracks, signals, overhead wires, tunnels, bridges, level crossings and most stations
...
In December 2013 the ONS announced that from September 2014 Network Rail will be classified as a "government body".
 

AnkleBoots

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
506
The context to my original post was that I was changing trains; my first train had run late and I had missed my connection. I was waiting for the next train which I wasn't sure had plug sockets. I was concerned about missing the last bus at my final destination and my phone was at 1%.

Before being approached by the security guy, I had been able to charge my phone to 29% (cost 0.05p it appears!) which was enough to allow me to check other buses/call taxi/Uber/a lift etc at my destination.

Had I not been able to charge it that much, I would likely have resisted the instruction to stop charging the phone, because I was worried about being stranded.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,063
Wasn't the question as to what the security guard's remit in asking people to leave was, rather than whether he could do that for any reason? Employees and contractors need to act within Company policy.
More to the point, what powers do company servants actually have in law if people are infringing very minor by-laws (that is if they really are by-laws) and what powers can actually be delegated to poorly-trained and unqualified contractors' staff?
There are enough problems already with railway gate-line staff not knowing ticketing rules (and TOCs not bothering to re-train them) without "security" animals taking the law into their own hands.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,575
Had I not been able to charge it that much, I would likely have resisted the instruction to stop charging the phone, because I was worried about being stranded.
It would be better to explain the situation, rather than just resist. People can be quite helpful to someone in difficulty, whereas arguing with a security guard is rarely going to end well. Security guards are human - my brother used to be one. Labelling them all as "animals" says a lot about certain peoples' attitudes. Unfortunately some people seem to get quite combative at the sight of a uniform.

Before the advent of mobile phones, it was clearly unacceptable to plug something in to someone else's power socket without permission. If at a friend's, I still ask permission before plugging in. But it does seem to have become widely accepted practice that you can plug into sockets in "public" places. I wonder how long it will be before people feel it is acceptable to plug in a portable heater because they are feeling cold....
 

AnkleBoots

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
506
It would be better to explain the situation, rather than just resist.
Yes, I do mean that I would have tried to explain my reasons rather than resist in some other way.

But my impression was that this particular guy was more of a bouncer from rough pubs type, than a polite Waitrose one who holds doors open for old ladies. So he may not have listened to me.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,521
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Before the advent of mobile phones, it was clearly unacceptable to plug something in to someone else's power socket without permission. If at a friend's, I still ask permission before plugging in. But it does seem to have become widely accepted practice that you can plug into sockets in "public" places. I wonder how long it will be before people feel it is acceptable to plug in a portable heater because they are feeling cold....

How many people carry a fan heater round in their bag?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,521
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But my impression was that this particular guy was more of a bouncer from rough pubs type, than a polite Waitrose one who holds doors open for old ladies. So he may not have listened to me.

I certainly find a marked difference in security guard quality between the UK and other European countries. Here they are mostly the former, in mainland Europe they are mostly the latter and will, for instance, explain to you why you have to do what they say rather than just using intimidation as they mostly do here. The SIA removed the corruption, violence and drug issues, but the industry has a VERY, VERY long way to go.
 

AnkleBoots

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
506
The SIA removed the corruption, violence and drug issues, but the industry has a VERY, VERY long way to go.
Interesting you mention the SIA, I was looking for a SIA badge on the guy's arm, but I couldn't see one on him or his slightly less burly colleague. That's another reason why I felt less inclined to follow instructions than I would from a uniformed member of railway staff or a police officer.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,063
It would be better to explain the situation, rather than just resist. People can be quite helpful to someone in difficulty, whereas arguing with a security guard is rarely going to end well. Security guards are human - my brother used to be one. Labelling them all as "animals" says a lot about certain peoples' attitudes. Unfortunately some people seem to get quite combative at the sight of a uniform.
Have you ever tried saying "I'm sorry, but you are wrong on that" to one of them? The possession of a "uniform"or even an HVV seems to allow them to think they can take the law into their own hands, and by the time you have escalated it to a supervisor and then to someone who understands tickets and who is not just going to back up their staff on principle you have missed either your event or several trains home.
I have taken to carrying print-outs of web pages showing ticket validity with me just in case.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,063
Interesting you mention the SIA, I was looking for a SIA badge on the guy's arm, but I couldn't see one on him or his slightly less burly colleague. That's another reason why I felt less inclined to follow instructions than I would from a uniformed member of railway staff or a police officer.
Yes, just saying "Who are you (like where is your warrant card, ID or even uniform) and what authority have you got?" isn't likely to get you home on time!
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
The problem with your definition of a convention is that it's impossible to distinguish from an idea that you - and you alone - have.
Well it's a good job it's not an idea Bletchleyite alone has. You also have it, because you've seen it yourself.

I've seen people using the sockets to charge their phone that don't have a sign on them in pubs, cafes, libraries, motorway services, airports and yea railway stationa on a frequent basis.

It's conventional that you can charge your phone in this way. Convention frequently ignores the law. For years it was conventional to steal films and music online. On some tram services it's conventional to travel without paying for your journey. It doesn't make these things right, or un-punishable.

I would suggest there is no harm in people charging their phones for free, though. Totally unlike failing to pay for your tram journey.

A great many stations have sockets which are for use by rail passengers, including dedicated ones installed for the purpose at desks, and signs stuck on ones that have been there for years down at floor level.
 
Last edited:

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Interesting you mention the SIA, I was looking for a SIA badge on the guy's arm, but I couldn't see one on him or his slightly less burly colleague. That's another reason why I felt less inclined to follow instructions than I would from a uniformed member of railway staff or a police officer.

I'm not aware that you've said this previously, i.e. there were two security people involved.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,585
Surely the simple answer to keep everyone happy is to buy a (decent rather than tat from the pound shop!) power bank to carry around? (you can even get them in phone case form but it does make your phone a bit bulky!)

Assuming you charge both your phone and the power bank the night before you should have more than enough juice between them to get you through the day!
 

kermit

Member
Joined
2 May 2011
Messages
592
Fascinating. I remember years ago seeing phones being charged opportunistically from sockets clearly not intended or provided for such purposes - initially, the general public response was to "tut" at the perceived self entitlement of the invariably young, male, loud and irritating phone user. I was in an airport the other day, and noticed the increasing proportion of people for whom their phone was clearly their only source of evidence for the right to travel. I wondered whether airline staff, whose companies have promoted this change and basically do not want their airports clogged up with numpties who perpetually live at 2% charge, now have instructions to help passengers who have got through security then seen their phone die? And is it the same for railway staff?
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,549
I don't know about instructions, but I remember being on a northern train (pretty sure it was a class 323 but not 100%) where someone was struggling with a flat or nearly flat battery and a ticket on their phone and the guard opened up a flap under a seat to reveal a socket.
 

Sean Emmett

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2015
Messages
496
IIRC there was an incident on a circle/district line train nr Cannon St where someone had used a 'not for public use' socket to charge their phone and the charger caught fire.

Not long after that there was a prosecution for abstraction of electricity from an overground train on N London line which was dropped before it went to trial.

IIRC the RAIB took the view that any socket visible on a train was likely to be used by the public for phone charging and so the electrics would have ti be sorted to prevent surges on the move, or the socket locked/plated over for cleaners use only.

On moby so difficult to research links for this.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,521
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I wondered whether airline staff, whose companies have promoted this change and basically do not want their airports clogged up with numpties who perpetually live at 2% charge, now have instructions to help passengers who have got through security then seen their phone die? And is it the same for railway staff?

Depends on the airline. Before power banks were a thing (now they are if I have a bag there is odds on one inside - I only ever use train sockets if wanting to use a laptop, and even that, despite being a very cheap one, has about 6 hours of life) I ran out of phone battery while waiting for a BA flight at Heathrow. A quick question at the desk with my passport and a printed boarding pass was produced free of charge.

I doubt Eireflop are as accommodating, though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top