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First Trenitalia (Avanti!) WCML branding, naming and livery

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61653 HTAFC

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It's been discussed in the past - I'm not sure there's much to add to it - but don't let me stop you! :)
I'm a bit sleep-deprived today, so I'll wait to see if there's much call for it (note to other members: feel free to PM me).

Back to Avanti or whatever they end up being called!
 
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mpthomson

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Renfe has a complicated list of train types, one of which is Avant - a bit too close to Avanti for comfort if you ask me.
Avant services are at the bottom end of the high-speed bracket, with a lower top speed (250km/h) and making more stops than AVE-branded trains.
They use CAF/Alstom S-104 sets (Pendolino-based) and are classified Media Distanca.
They run regional services on the high speed lines from Madrid to places like Toledo, Salamanca and Valladolid.

it’s vanishingly unlikely that a member of the normal travelling public is going to look askance at a train because it kind of nearly shares a name with a Spanish service....
 

LNW-GW Joint

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it’s vanishingly unlikely that a member of the normal travelling public is going to look askance at a train because it kind of nearly shares a name with a Spanish service....

You may be right, but Eurostar had a lot of trouble with FS/Trenitalia who claimed they invented the name first for their high-speed services.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurostar_Italia

Eurostar Italia was the name given to high-speed trains operated by Trenitalia in Italy.
The brand was discontinued and replaced with Le Frecce in December 2012
 

ashkeba

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Get your best fake vampire accent ready! "Ah Vant Ee Train Ahnd Ah Vant Eet Naow!"
 

bramling

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I reckon it could work with a marketing scheme based around Italian-ness - a strapline like "travel with a bit of Italian flair", themed first class menus, Italian leather seats in both classes etc as well as a red, white and green livery. Even with Brexit.

Do people associate Italian with quality?

Certainly thinking back to the 90s Italian cars had a pretty atrocious reputation IIRC, and as for Italian restaurants they tend to err towards greasy spoon IMO, even if personally I quite like the food.

It's not like Avanti seems to have any kind of meaning which relates to rail travel. Virgin got away with this as it was (and is) a well known, well established and generally respected - if slightly contentious - brand. Something like Abellio is similarly meaningless, and it's notable they dropped using the brand name on AGA, which is now plain Greater Anglia.

The other problem with brand names is that they can go badly sour if things go through a rough patch. Connex is still remembered as a distressed brand even though they've been absent from UK rail operations for 15 years or so now. Whereas a plain geographical brand is, IMO, much more likely to recover from a rough patch, as Southern largely has.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's not like Avanti seems to have any kind of meaning which relates to rail travel. Virgin got away with this as it was (and is) a well known, well established and generally respected - if slightly contentious - brand. Something like Abellio is similarly meaningless, and it's notable they dropped using the brand name on AGA, which is now plain Greater Anglia.

Dropped at the DaFT's insistence because it wasn't a transferrable brand, perhaps?
 

Mogz

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Perhaps the service will be known as

LMS Avanti

Which would complement

LNER Azuma
and
GWR IET

Am I clutching at straws here...?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Perhaps the service will be known as

LMS Avanti

Which would complement

LNER Azuma
and
GWR IET

Am I clutching at straws here...?
Not clutching at straws, just repeating what a number of people have already said ;):)
 

BigCj34

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Do people associate Italian with quality?

Certainly thinking back to the 90s Italian cars had a pretty atrocious reputation IIRC, and as for Italian restaurants they tend to err towards greasy spoon IMO, even if personally I quite like the food.

It's not like Avanti seems to have any kind of meaning which relates to rail travel. Virgin got away with this as it was (and is) a well known, well established and generally respected - if slightly contentious - brand. Something like Abellio is similarly meaningless, and it's notable they dropped using the brand name on AGA, which is now plain Greater Anglia.

The other problem with brand names is that they can go badly sour if things go through a rough patch. Connex is still remembered as a distressed brand even though they've been absent from UK rail operations for 15 years or so now. Whereas a plain geographical brand is, IMO, much more likely to recover from a rough patch, as Southern largely has.

There's definitely some association with quality and Italian-ness, helps to play this up when promoting a country! Certainly cuisine, fashion and motorsport there is a positive image. For railway related matters, not sure the reputation extends to that although they do have a fair amount of high speed lines (though no idea how it performs for regional services). The failed Dutch Fyra trains were Italian made.
 

option

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Doesn't the announcement of the type of train actually help people to know where to stand on the platform, particularly with VTWC as they operate 2 types (3 if you class the 9 car and 11 car Pendos differently)?

As an example at Stafford people waiting for the Liverpool-London service will generally spread out across the length of the platform and are then reassured by the announcement that it is a Pendolino service. If someone was stood at the end of the platform and an unannounced Voyager arrived, they would be in for a mad dash to get back to the middle of the platform.

As for the Avanti name, I quite like it if that's what they go with.


There will be 2 different sets of the average public user;
those that regularly use that service & so know what train is usual, without having to be told
infrequent users who will just stand on the platform & then look for the correct carriage, & they won't care what type of train it is
 

EE Andy b1

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There will be 2 different sets of the average public user;
those that regularly use that service & so know what train is usual, without having to be told
infrequent users who will just stand on the platform & then look for the correct carriage, & they won't care what type of train it is


You are right in a way, but it's amazing how many of the travelling public know the name "Pendolino" and has been used to great effect as a marketing tool. Also the name "Voyager" is quite well known as passengers say they prefer the windows on a Voyager. So the public do know and it matters!

So if it was announced as "LMS Avanti service to Holyhead" people would learn to love or hate that type of train.

I'm still hoping for Avanti as First Trenitalias new trains nickname and LMS as the TOC!
 

Bletchleyite

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There's definitely some association with quality and Italian-ness, helps to play this up when promoting a country! Certainly cuisine, fashion and motorsport there is a positive image. For railway related matters, not sure the reputation extends to that although they do have a fair amount of high speed lines (though no idea how it performs for regional services).

Regional services are a bit hotchpotch, often not clockface and using a variety of knackered old DMUs and LHCS, though with increasing numbers of quite nice Stadler GTWs and FLIRTs. But local services aren't what people pay attention to, just as they don't when enthusing about France while forgetting that the Conwy Valley's 1tp3h-ish service interspersed with the odd bus isn't considered "sparse" but "normal" in French regional terms. They see the fancy pointy nosed things and think they're a bit cooler than what we have, though to be fair the WCML does already have fancy pointy-nosed things with an Italian name, so the effect is probably a bit reduced there.
 

transmanche

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No, it was dropped when the new franchise started, months before selling a chunk to Mitsui.
Correct. The new franchise started in October 2016 and the trading name was changed at that time. Abellio sold a 40% stake to Mitsui in March 2017.
 

Prestige15

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West Coast Railways aren't an OFFICIAL TOC, they only operate railtour. West Coast Rail would be a Passenger operator, and that should be the brand name, as its simplistic, as I have ideas for the WCR livery. I did 804s as their probs going to be the replacement. Livery simplistic. Also I have based this on the colours I have seen on their website.

It also reflects GNER :lol:View attachment 69133 View attachment 69134

Thought i have a go myself
untitledews-jpg.70189
 

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EE Andy b1

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Thought i have a go myself
untitledews-jpg.70189

Quite a nice livery, but EWS, no way! We been there and done that one.

Virtually confirmed today that AVANTI is part of the TOC name!! :rolleyes:

AVANTI West Coast!

First AVANTI!

AVANTI Trains!

Take your pick!:frown:
 

Prestige15

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Quite a nice livery, but EWS, no way! We been there and done that one.

Virtually confirmed today that AVANTI is part of the TOC name!! :rolleyes:

AVANTI West Coast!

First AVANTI!

AVANTI Trains!

Take your pick!:frown:
Well we have been with GWR, LNWR and LNER before.

And in question about AVANTI how about AVANTI Line or simply as AVANTI?
 

CeeJ

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Thought i have a go myself
untitledews-jpg.70189
If only there was a word generally (but not exclusively) used to describe England, Wales and Scotland as a single entity, combined with a common shortening of 'railway'...

But I do really like the livery here - reminds me a little bit of CrossCountry, but distinctive (maybe a slight lack of blue for Scotland - you can't please everyone!)
 

Mathew S

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This is a screenshot of a Twitter account which has been created in the last few days. It is named Avanti Trains (@TrainsAvanti) and has posted one tweet, yesterday, simply saying "Coming Soon!"

Screenshot_20191107-143559_Twitter.jpg
 
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This is a screenshot of a Twitter account which has been created in the last few days. It is named Avanti Trains (@TrainsAvanti) and has posted one tweet, yesterday, simply saying "Coming Soon!"

View attachment 70221
Mint Green seems to be the popular corporate colour these days. The 'taking you the distance ' strapline could become very emabarrasing very quickly, who comes up with this tripe and then gets it signed off? I swear I must get a job in Marketing
 
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