The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

[Aictos]

If Labour were to win by a landslide, would their Momentum inner-core celebrate by renaming London....as Corbyngrad?

Please just no!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At least there's a chance of avoiding Brexit if Labour win. Even if you have voted Conservative your whole life, voting for them is unthinkable at the moment given their commitment to Brexit.

Spoken as one to whom Brexit is obviously anathema, but there are still many of the electorate out there who still have expressed a wish to leave the EU, not all Conservative voters by any means.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Spoken as one to whom Brexit is obviously anathema, but there are still many of the electorate out there who still have expressed a wish to leave the EU, not all Conservative voters by any means.

Precisely - very many Labour voters are Brexiteers.

 

[Butts]

Spoken as one to whom Brexit is obviously anathema, but there are still many of the electorate out there who still have expressed a wish to leave the EU, not all Conservative voters by any means.

Indeed, contrary to popular belief there are even SNP supporters who wish to leave. Don't expect to hear a squeak out of them though - it's akin to heresy.

 

[radamfi]

Spoken as one to whom Brexit is obviously anathema, but there are still many of the electorate out there who still have expressed a wish to leave the EU, not all Conservative voters by any means.

My point is that it would be logical for staunch Remainers to avoid voting Conservative on this occasion.

 

[Struner]

& not just their commitment to brexit

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed, contrary to popular belief there are even SNP supporters who wish to leave. Don't expect to hear a squeak out of them though - it's akin to heresy.

Correct and it is logical if you think about it - NI too but for different reasons. Why if you vote SNP do you want independence from the UK but get further into bed with Europe? It makes zero sense.

With NI - a huge number want to remain loyal to the UK/British Crown - so if the UK is out of Europe so must NI be.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think it is fairly clear - or in my opinion it is, if you want to remain in the EU - it does not matter if you are Labour or Conservative you have to vote Lib Dem. Could this be a ground breaking election like no other - tactical voting at its finest.

 

[edwin_m]

Correct and it is logical if you think about it - NI too but for different reasons. Why if you vote SNP do you want independence from the UK but get further into bed with Europe? It makes zero sense.

With NI - a huge number want to remain loyal to the UK/British Crown - so if the UK is out of Europe so must NI be.

I lived in Scotland at the time of the 1979 devolution referendum and the SNP bringing down the Callaghan government as a result, leading to the election of Thatcher.

There is massive resentment in Scotland of the way England tries to lord it over them - rather like Brexit it's more like a religion than a political belief. This is aggravated when the UK is run by the Tories and Scotland clearly prefers a different party. Even more so when the Tories are led by someone who gives the impression they hardly acknowledge the existence of Scotland let alone caring about it, and/or looks, sounds and behaves like an English toff. Ruth Davidson in particular detoxified the Tories to an extent in Scotland, but she is now gone and Johnson is probably the most effective PM since Thatcher at getting the Scots' backs up.

The EU is seen as a way of allowing small nations to punch above their weight, and many Scots see being part of the EU giving some of the upsides of being in the UK without the disadvantages of being dominated by England. A big issue in the 2014 referendum was whether an independent Scotland would qualify automatically for EU membership. If, as well as reverting to their historic attitude towards Scotland, the Tories throw away one of the main reasons to vote No in 2014 then it's hardly surprising if Scottish opinion moves towards independence. The SNP of course know all this and are very happy to have a Tory government because they know it's their best chance of achieving their goal.

Unlike Scotland I can't speak from personal knowledge of NI, but I guess the Nationalist side has some parallels with the above. Unlike the related Scottish Protestants, the Unionists are strongly in favour of remaining in the UK but their other policies are well to the right of any other mainstream party.

 

[Cowley]

Labour’s deputy leader Tom Watson has stepped down...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50325666

 

[radamfi]

I think it is fairly clear - or in my opinion it is, if you want to remain in the EU - it does not matter if you are Labour or Conservative you have to vote Lib Dem. Could this be a ground breaking election like no other - tactical voting at its finest.

If the Lib Dems are second in your constituency then it is a no brainer. But if they are not then it is not so simple.

 

[Kite159]

Labour’s deputy leader Tom Watson has stepped down...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50325666

I bet some of Steptoes Outriders are in a happy mood tonight

 

[Butts]

I lived in Scotland at the time of the 1979 devolution referendum and the SNP bringing down the Callaghan government as a result, leading to the election of Thatcher.

There is massive resentment in Scotland of the way England tries to lord it over them - rather like Brexit it's more like a religion than a political belief. This is aggravated when the UK is run by the Tories and Scotland clearly prefers a different party. Even more so when the Tories are led by someone who gives the impression they hardly acknowledge the existence of Scotland let alone caring about it, and/or looks, sounds and behaves like an English toff. Ruth Davidson in particular detoxified the Tories to an extent in Scotland, but she is now gone and Johnson is probably the most effective PM since Thatcher at getting the Scots' backs up.

The resentment is somewhat akin to David and Goliath - but who are we going to blame for our woes if we become Independent ?

The Tories have become the second party in Scotland apart from the Euro Elections in recent years so some progress has been made. Whether this has ended we will find out in a few weeks time.

Did people in England complain when they were subjected to Labour Governments propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour MP's ?

 

[Bevan Price]

The resentment is somewhat akin to David and Goliath - but who are we going to blame for our woes if we become Independent ?

The Tories have become the second party in Scotland apart from the Euro Elections in recent years so some progress has been made. Whether this has ended we will find out in a few weeks time.

Did people in England complain when they were subjected to Labour Governments propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour MP's ?

Well the pro-tory part of the media, and many of their readers were often whingeing about what Labour was doing.

 

[bramling]

The resentment is somewhat akin to David and Goliath - but who are we going to blame for our woes if we become Independent ?

The Tories have become the second party in Scotland apart from the Euro Elections in recent years so some progress has been made. Whether this has ended we will find out in a few weeks time.

Did people in England complain when they were subjected to Labour Governments propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour MP's ?

Absolutely. How many Labour governments would not have happened but for Scotland?

 

[Butts]

Absolutely. How many Labour governments would not have happened but for Scotland?

And Wales !!

 

[bussnapperwm]

My money is on the Labour Party win with the assist to the SNP. I've already got a bet in my office on the result (the wager being loser buying posh cakes!!!)

 

[muddythefish]

There is massive resentment in Scotland of the way England tries to lord it over them - rather like Brexit it's more like a religion than a political belief. This is aggravated when the UK is run by the Tories and Scotland clearly prefers a different party. Even more so when the Tories are led by someone who gives the impression they hardly acknowledge the existence of Scotland let alone caring about it, and/or looks, sounds and behaves like an English toff. Ruth Davidson in particular detoxified the Tories to an extent in Scotland, but she is now gone and Johnson is probably the most effective PM since Thatcher at getting the Scots' backs up.
.

There's massive resentment too in large parts of the north of England at the way it has been treated by the Conservative party since the 1980s. I envy the Scots - at least they have a chance of getting rid of the Tory curse once and for all. Here in the north, we have no such choice. If I were a Scot I would vote for independence tomorrow.

 

[GusB]

The Tories have become the second party in Scotland apart from the Euro Elections in recent years so some progress has been made. Whether this has ended we will find out in a few weeks time.

I wouldn't call it progress. The Tories survived in Scotland purely and simply because we have a form of PR for the Scottish Parliament elections. The Tory voting contingent isn't ignored because there is a system in place that acknowledges minority parties and allocates seats accordingly. They did experience a bit of a resurgence in the most recent general election, I will grant you that (my own seat having fallen back to the Cons after some 30 years). The anti-EU issue was strong here and I do believe that had much to do with the way the general election result went. Don't count your chickens, though.

Did people in England complain when they were subjected to Labour Governments propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour MP's ?

If England really wants a Labour government, it will have one. There are very few occasions where Scottish seats have affected the overall result. NB - I don't have figures including Welsh votes.

Source: https://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

1945 Labour govt (Attlee)
————————————
Labour majority: 146
Labour majority without any Scottish MPs in Parliament: 143
NO CHANGE WITHOUT SCOTTISH MPS


1950 Labour govt (Attlee)
————————————
Labour majority: 5
Without Scottish MPs: 2
NO CHANGE


1951 Conservative govt (Churchill/Eden)
——————————————————–
Conservative majority: 17
Without Scottish MPs: 16
NO CHANGE


1955 Conservative govt (Eden/Macmillan)
——————————————————–
Conservative majority: 60
Without Scottish MPs: 61
NO CHANGE


1959 Conservative govt (Macmillan/Douglas-Home)
————————————————————————
Conservative majority: 100
Without Scottish MPs: 109
NO CHANGE


1964 Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————
Labour majority: 4
Without Scottish MPs: -11
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY OF 1
(Con 280, Lab 274, Lib 5)


1966 Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————
Labour majority: 98
Without Scottish MPs: 77
NO CHANGE


1970 Conservative govt (Heath)
——————————————–
Conservative majority: 30
Without Scottish MPs: 55
NO CHANGE


1974 Minority Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————————
Labour majority: -33
Without Scottish MPs: -42
POSSIBLE CHANGE – LABOUR MINORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MINORITY
(Without Scots: Con 276, Lab 261, Lib 11, Others 16)


1974b Labour govt (Wilson/Callaghan)
—————————————————–
Labour majority: 3
Without Scottish MPs: -8
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO LABOUR MINORITY
(Lab 278 Con 261 Lib 10 others 15)


1979 Conservative govt (Thatcher)
————————————————
Conservative majority: 43
Without Scottish MPs: 70
NO CHANGE


1983 Conservative govt (Thatcher)
————————————————
Conservative majority: 144
Without Scottish MPs: 174
NO CHANGE


1987 Conservative govt (Thatcher/Major)
——————————————————
Conservative majority: 102
Without Scottish MPs: 154
NO CHANGE


1992 Conservative govt (Major)
———————————————
Conservative majority: 21
Without Scottish MPs: 71
NO CHANGE


1997 Labour govt (Blair)
———————————–
Labour majority: 179
Without Scottish MPs: 139
NO CHANGE


2001 Labour govt (Blair)
———————————–
Labour majority: 167
Without Scottish MPs: 129
NO CHANGE


2005 Labour govt (Blair/Brown)
——————————————–
Labour majority: 66
Without Scottish MPs: 43
NO CHANGE


2010 Coalition govt (Cameron)
——————————————
Conservative majority: -38
Without Scottish MPs: 19
CHANGE: CON-LIB COALITION TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY

 

[433N]

I lived in Scotland at the time of the 1979 devolution referendum and the SNP bringing down the Callaghan government as a result, leading to the election of Thatcher.

There is massive resentment in Scotland of the way England tries to lord it over them - rather like Brexit it's more like a religion than a political belief. This is aggravated when the UK is run by the Tories and Scotland clearly prefers a different party. Even more so when the Tories are led by someone who gives the impression they hardly acknowledge the existence of Scotland let alone caring about it, and/or looks, sounds and behaves like an English toff. Ruth Davidson in particular detoxified the Tories to an extent in Scotland, but she is now gone and Johnson is probably the most effective PM since Thatcher at getting the Scots' backs up.

The EU is seen as a way of allowing small nations to punch above their weight, and many Scots see being part of the EU giving some of the upsides of being in the UK without the disadvantages of being dominated by England. A big issue in the 2014 referendum was whether an independent Scotland would qualify automatically for EU membership. If, as well as reverting to their historic attitude towards Scotland, the Tories throw away one of the main reasons to vote No in 2014 then it's hardly surprising if Scottish opinion moves towards independence. The SNP of course know all this and are very happy to have a Tory government because they know it's their best chance of achieving their goal.

Unlike Scotland I can't speak from personal knowledge of NI, but I guess the Nationalist side has some parallels with the above. Unlike the related Scottish Protestants, the Unionists are strongly in favour of remaining in the UK but their other policies are well to the right of any other mainstream party.

I agree with much of this. As far as

"The EU is seen as a way of allowing small nations to punch above their weight ... ", I think it could be put a little differently in that a Scotland in the EU would be recognised as a nation in a way that it isn't now ; a prime example being that although a majority in Scotland voted to Remain, apparently it is fulfilling the democratic will of the people to leave and Scotland has barely been consulted on the terms of exit (though, in fairness, although 'not a party issue', Brexit has been hijacked by right wing Tories to further their agenda without even consultation with Labour or anyone really). Apparently, everyone voted for a Tory Brexit.

Why if you vote SNP do you want independence from the UK but get further into bed with Europe? It makes zero sense.

... unless you understand that we have entered a period of politics of identity rather than politics of ideology. Why shouldn't someone identify as Scottish European rather than Scottish British , particularly when the values of the EU are more akin to theirs than those of a bunch of over-privileged, right wingers in Westminster?

Of course, it makes zero sense to vote for Brexit too, since it has become quite clear that we will all be worse off. However, many cling to the old British identity and how somehow the Dunkerque (sic - not Dunkirk) spirit will see us through (ignoring the fact that we got a good hiding at Dunkirk). Unfortunately the Tories have chipped away at the idea of a working class and many are left with no sense of socio-political identity. Despite offering nothing but more austerity and having presided over a country in which the rich got richer and the poor got poorer for 5 years, posh boy Cameron got re-elected in 2015, so nothing should surprise us really.

 

[Butts]

I agree with much of this. As far as

"The EU is seen as a way of allowing small nations to punch above their weight ... ", I think it could be put a little differently in that a Scotland in the EU would be recognised as a nation in a way that it isn't now ; a prime example being that although a majority in Scotland voted to Remain, apparently it is fulfilling the democratic will of the people to leave and Scotland has barely been consulted on the terms of exit (though, in fairness, although 'not a party issue', Brexit has been hijacked by right wing Tories to further their agenda without even consultation with Labour or anyone really). Apparently, everyone voted for a Tory Brexit.
[/QUO

I wouldn't call it progress. The Tories survived in Scotland purely and simply because we have a form of PR for the Scottish Parliament elections. The Tory voting contingent isn't ignored because there is a system in place that acknowledges minority parties and allocates seats accordingly. They did experience a bit of a resurgence in the most recent general election, I will grant you that (my own seat having fallen back to the Cons after some 30 years). The anti-EU issue was strong here and I do believe that had much to do with the way the general election result went. Don't count your chickens, though.


If England really wants a Labour government, it will have one. There are very few occasions where Scottish seats have affected the overall result. NB - I don't have figures including Welsh votes.

Source: https://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

I think if you examine the last three Elections 2010/2015/2017 the Conservatives won an outright majority in England and would have had a majority/bigger majority without Labour in Wales and in the case of 2010 Scotland as they were wiped out in the latter two.

The Tories even won more votes in England than Labour at the 2005 Election but that was not represented in seats.

 

[Butts]

I agree with much of this. As far as

"The EU is seen as a way of allowing small nations to punch above their weight ... ", I think it could be put a little differently in that a Scotland in the EU would be recognised as a nation in a way that it isn't now ; a prime example being that although a majority in Scotland voted to Remain, apparently it is fulfilling the democratic will of the people to leave and Scotland has barely been consulted on the terms of exit (though, in fairness, although 'not a party issue', Brexit has been hijacked by right wing Tories to further their agenda without even consultation with Labour or anyone really). Apparently, everyone voted for a Tory Brexit.

You can't have it both ways - a majority in Scotland voted to remain in the UK in the referendum in 2014. That means accepting the result of subsequent UK wide votes.

 

[433N]

You can't have it both ways - a majority in Scotland voted to remain in the UK in the referendum in 2014. That means accepting the result of subsequent UK wide votes.

I was a passionate supporter of remaining in the UK in 2014 ... but now, meh . In fact, if I could feel that the SNP had governed competently, I would probably be pro-Independence now. I really do believe that Brexit and its aftermath has been a seismic shift in paradigm. As I say, maybe not if it hadn't been hijacked by the nastiest of the nasty ... but it has. The values of the EU are far more aligned to my own than those on show in Westminster.

 

[Butts]

I was a passionate supporter of remaining in the UK in 2014 ... but now, meh . In fact, if I could feel that the SNP had governed competently, I would probably be pro-Independence now. I really do believe that Brexit and its aftermath has been a seismic shift in paradigm. As I say, maybe not if it hadn't been hijacked by the nastiest of the nasty ... but it has. The values of the EU are far more aligned to my own than those on show in Westminster.

Well it may suprise you to know that I voted to leave the UK and EU in 2014/16 respectively.

People claim to want Independence but are not prepared to suffer the economic consequences that would inevitably follow. Look how long it took Ireland to achieve prosperity after decades of poverty.

 

[edwin_m]

People claim to want Independence but are not prepared to suffer the economic consequences that would inevitably follow. Look how long it took Ireland to achieve prosperity after decades of poverty.

It only happened after they joined the EU! Having a similar size and culture, Ireland is a good example for the SNP to show how an independent Scotland might prosper within the EU.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

... unless you understand that we have entered a period of politics of identity rather than politics of ideology. Why shouldn't someone identify as Scottish European rather than Scottish British , particularly when the values of the EU are more akin to theirs than those of a bunch of over-privileged, right wingers in Westminster?

Of course, it makes zero sense to vote for Brexit too, since it has become quite clear that we will all be worse off. However, many cling to the old British identity and how somehow the Dunkerque (sic - not Dunkirk) spirit will see us through (ignoring the fact that we got a good hiding at Dunkirk). Unfortunately the Tories have chipped away at the idea of a working class and many are left with no sense of socio-political identity. Despite offering nothing but more austerity and having presided over a country in which the rich got richer and the poor got poorer for 5 years, posh boy Cameron got re-elected in 2015, so nothing should surprise us really.

So if we Leave then SNP/Labour do a deal so 2nd Scottish referendum and they also leave (I wonder if there will then be all the Brexit nonsense of taking forever and all the Scottish remain in the UK crowd demanding yet another referendum?!!!) - then the hard border with NI will be like a vicars tea party compared to hard Scottish border etc. This could get really messy really quickly. Interesting times.

 

[Butts]

It only happened after they joined the EU! Having a similar size and culture, Ireland is a good example for the SNP to show how an independent Scotland might prosper within the EU.

They only joined the EU because the UK did. We are their biggest trading parner and most of their exports are moved through British Ports.

 

[bussnapperwm]

BBC a hour ago

A former BBC radio presenter who said women should "keep their knickers on" while debating a rape case is in the running to become a Conservative MP.

Nick Conrad, 34, who hosted BBC Radio Norfolk's breakfast show, has been selected as the party's parliamentary candidate for the Broadland seat.

He said he was "absolutely delighted" and offered a "genuine, heartfelt apology" for his comments.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-50322512

People like him who have said it's women's fault for being raped sickens me. He wouldn't have made those comments had it happened to someone closer to him.

And that is what people are voting for. Shady characters like Jacob Rees Mogg who says that the victims of Grenfall lacked common sense by following the instructions of the fire officials, Boris who is stifling a report on interference in the 2016 referendum, Alun Cairns who helped his mate in a collapse of a rape trial and now Nick Conrad. Anyone who votes Tory with this is coming out must have their morals checked.

What's more is that Boris would have no hesitation over pressing the Nuclear Button, meaning that we could end up wiped out at the whims of the two buffoons Johnson and Trump.

That's why, as well as with the Brexit ball's up as well as the cuts to the venerable and poorest in our country, I cannot vote Tory. Instead I am looking forward to casting my ballot for my local labour candidate.

 

[radamfi]

That's why, as well as with the Brexit ball's up as well as the cuts to the venerable and poorest in our country, I cannot vote Tory. Instead I am looking forward to casting my ballot for my local labour candidate.

The more outrageous the more attractive they become to the electorate. By admitting to being a sex offender Trump has gone as high as it is possible to go. If Johnson raped the Queen on live TV, he would win 650/650 seats.

 

[Howardh]

The more outrageous the more attractive they become to the electorate. By admitting to being a sex offender Trump has gone as high as it is possible to go. If Johnson raped the Queen on live TV, he would win 650/650 seats.

If he wanted to do something REALLY outlandish he could tell us something that's true?
Big ask, I know. Better guard Liz.