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Under utilised class 67s

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Grumpy

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Surely the ultimate reason behind the under-utilisation of the 67s is that the postal traffic they were built for completely dried up within a couple of years of them being built, and as such EWS/DB have been having to find work to suit them ever since.
The only postal traffic at the time of ordering, that was not worked throughout by a class 325 or electric loco, were the Bristol to Willesden and Bristol to Warrington services. Only need 4 locos max for that and no need for 125mph. No need to acquire a fleet of 30
 
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DarloRich

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The only postal traffic at the time of ordering, that was not worked throughout by a class 325 or electric loco, were the Bristol to Willesden and Bristol to Warrington services. Only need 4 locos max for that and no need for 125mph. No need to acquire a fleet of 30

Is that right?
 

ExRes

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Is that right?

Not at all, what about far West Country services? Plymouth, Penzance for example, 4 locos wouldn't go anywhere near covering the ECS moves to Old Oak let alone anything else and certainly wouldn't have covered Bristol services, why did we have 70 odd 47/7s if 4 67s were enough?


Just remembered another one that we used to prep the 67 at Doncaster RMT for, West Country vans via Derby
 
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Grumpy

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Not at all, what about far West Country services? Plymouth, Penzance for example, 4 locos wouldn't go anywhere near covering the ECS moves to Old Oak let alone anything else and certainly wouldn't have covered Bristol services, why did we have 70 odd 47/7s if 4 67s were enough?
My memory may be playing tricks and I could be wrong but my recollection of Royal Mail's Railnet project is that it severely rationalised use of rail in order to cut costs. Handling changed from throwing bags onto trains to the use of wheeled containers. Royal Mail built new terminals at Willesden, Low Fell, Doncaster, Warrington, Sheildmuir and Bristol,and facilities were adapted at some other locations in order to handle the containers. With the new terminals most existing railway stations ceased to see postal traffic.Similarly the need for TPO's was reduced(eg the Manchester to Dover and the one which ran via Low Fell to Carlisle). The need forTPO's had also been reduced as a result of automation within RM and traffic switching to air.
There may still have been TPO's running on the WCML but hauled by electric locos. The Warrington to Bristol may have been a TPO but that might been only one train each way. I admit to being unsure about the arrangements for the West Country. However my point is that all this was put in place before the 67's were ordered. If anyone can tell me what diesel hauled postal trains were being run after the Railnet reorganisation I would be happy to be corrected
 

najaB

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However my point is that all this was put in place before the 67's were ordered.
As I understand it, the ordering of Class 67s would have been pretty much contemporaneous with the order for Class 325s and the move to containerised mail handling.
 

ExRes

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As I understand it, the ordering of Class 67s would have been pretty much contemporaneous with the order for Class 325s and the move to containerised mail handling.

I'm not aware of the length of time it actually took between the ordering the 67s and their delivery, we had the 325s in service a full 3 years before the delivery of the first 67 though, the 325s and PCVs being timed to coincide with the opening of the PRDC
 

Grumpy

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I dont think so. The class 325's were ordered by Royal Mail as part of the Railnet project. That was being developed when BR was still publicly owned. RES were fettling up their 47's at the time-for example draughtproofing the cabs as drivers had to put bin bags or sleeping bags over their legs to stop them freezing (allegedly). The 67's were ordered later by EWS after privatisation.
Edit . This is a reply to post 66
 

ExRes

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My memory may be playing tricks and I could be wrong but my recollection of Royal Mail's Railnet project is that it severely rationalised use of rail in order to cut costs. Handling changed from throwing bags onto trains to the use of wheeled containers. Royal Mail built new terminals at Willesden, Low Fell, Doncaster, Warrington, Sheildmuir and Bristol,and facilities were adapted at some other locations in order to handle the containers. With the new terminals most existing railway stations ceased to see postal traffic.Similarly the need for TPO's was reduced(eg the Manchester to Dover and the one which ran via Low Fell to Carlisle). The need forTPO's had also been reduced as a result of automation within RM and traffic switching to air.
There may still have been TPO's running on the WCML but hauled by electric locos. The Warrington to Bristol may have been a TPO but that might been only one train each way. I admit to being unsure about the arrangements for the West Country. However my point is that all this was put in place before the 67's were ordered. If anyone can tell me what diesel hauled postal trains were being run after the Railnet reorganisation I would be happy to be corrected

Too many years have passed to remember all the diesel hauled services in the railnet period, what is fact is that all Bristol, Plymouth and Wales services were diesel, as were all the 'cross country' services along with the Dover and without diesel we would have had no access to Old Oak for stabling
 

najaB

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I'm not aware of the length of time it actually took between the ordering the 67s and their delivery...
I made a hash of editing my post - I meant to say that the order for the 67s would have been made around the same time as the introduction of the 325s, rather than the order for them. There would still have been, I believe, a lot of diesel mail traffic at the time.
 

ExRes

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I made a hash of editing my post - I meant to say that the order for the 67s would have been made around the same time as the introduction of the 325s, rather than the order for them. There would still have been, I believe, a lot of diesel mail traffic at the time.

The amount of time it seems to take from order to delivery the 67s were probably ordered in the 1980s ;)

One thing that many people don't seem to realise is that the 325s were not just a dual voltage electric unit, the loco hauled capability was also intended to allow them to travel over non electrified lines as well, I'm not sure it ever really happened but the ability was there
 

Grumpy

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Too many years have passed to remember all the diesel hauled services in the railnet period, what is fact is that all Bristol, Plymouth and Wales services were diesel, as were all the 'cross country' services along with the Dover and without diesel we would have had no access to Old Oak for stabling
As stated above,the Manchester-Dover was definitely ended by Railnet. I also suspect that services to Wales and Plymouth ceased at the same time. RM had been moving its Mail processing centres away from city centres,usually out towards motorways. It would probably have been quicker and cheaper to send a loaded road vehicle direct from the likes of Cardiff , Exeter and Plymouth to the Bristol hub, rather than convey by rail.
Basically the 67's weren't required for Postal services.If indeed anything else.
 

ExRes

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As stated above,the Manchester-Dover was definitely ended by Railnet. I also suspect that services to Wales and Plymouth ceased at the same time. RM had been moving its Mail processing centres away from city centres,usually out towards motorways. It would probably have been quicker and cheaper to send a loaded road vehicle direct from the likes of Cardiff , Exeter and Plymouth to the Bristol hub, rather than convey by rail.
Basically the 67's weren't required for Postal services.If indeed anything else.

The Manchester - Dover TPO was ended but a Norwich - Willesden - Dover TPO was introduced under Railnet, electric between Norwich and London and firstly 47s then 73s between London and Dover, the Dover was Up TPO at around 1920 at Down TPO at 0142
 

Richard Scott

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Just out of interest, would anyone know the mileage covered by each member of the class?
 

ic31420

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We're the 67s ever officially cleared for 125mph... If do do they ever regularly achieve 125?

I can't help think it would have always been better as a 100mph eth fitted 66.

Where are the bogies under the 67s used other than on the 67.
 

w1bbl3

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As stated above,the Manchester-Dover was definitely ended by Railnet. I also suspect that services to Wales and Plymouth ceased at the same time. RM had been moving its Mail processing centres away from city centres,usually out towards motorways. It would probably have been quicker and cheaper to send a loaded road vehicle direct from the likes of Cardiff , Exeter and Plymouth to the Bristol hub, rather than convey by rail.
Basically the 67's weren't required for Postal services.If indeed anything else.

Railnet effectively existed in two versions the original planned and delivered version and then the never implemented post 2001 limited version. Railnet v1 between 1996 and 2001 served Shieldmuir, Low Fell, Doncaster, Warrington, Stafford, Bristol, Willesden, Tonbridge. Services also operated to Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Penzance, Turo, Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Reading, Dover, Ipswich, Norwich, Rugby, Derby, Peterborough, Birmingham, York, Darlington, Carlisle and Edinburgh, all the other smaller stations disappeared from the network at this point. The service still had some TPO's sorting mail en-route. The system had 49 nightly diagrams as envisioned and contracted so the 40 class 67's together with the 16 class 325's was about right for the weekly needs.

The 2002 onwards service which never actually ran was to be limited to only the dedicated railnet hubs using trains carrying less time sensitive mail so second class and presorted operating only during the day, TPO's would have been withdrawn, this second version was proposed because the economics mail handling made the associated double handling by taking mail to passenger station more expensive than direct routes using road transport. The 67's where ordered for Railnet v1 which was a primarily diesel traction system.
 

ExRes

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Railnet effectively existed in two versions the original planned and delivered version and then the never implemented post 2001 limited version. Railnet v1 between 1996 and 2001 served Shieldmuir, Low Fell, Doncaster, Warrington, Stafford, Bristol, Willesden, Tonbridge. Services also operated to Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Penzance, Turo, Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Reading, Dover, Ipswich, Norwich, Rugby, Derby, Peterborough, Birmingham, York, Darlington, Carlisle and Edinburgh, all the other smaller stations disappeared from the network at this point. The service still had some TPO's sorting mail en-route. The system had 49 nightly diagrams as envisioned and contracted so the 40 class 67's together with the 16 class 325's was about right for the weekly needs.

The 2002 onwards service which never actually ran was to be limited to only the dedicated railnet hubs using trains carrying less time sensitive mail so second class and presorted operating only during the day, TPO's would have been withdrawn, this second version was proposed because the economics mail handling made the associated double handling by taking mail to passenger station more expensive than direct routes using road transport. The 67's where ordered for Railnet v1 which was a primarily diesel traction system.

Just one small point to your informative post, there were 30 Class 67s rather than 40
 

AndrewE

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100mph in a light loco 67 was very entertaining.
Is the maximum speed for a single light engine that high now? I thought that there was a ceiling of 75 or 80 mph, although I never understood why.
 

najaB

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I thought that there was a ceiling of 75 or 80 mph, although I never understood why.
Brake force (or lack thereof). Locomotives are very heavy, and don't have many wheels to make contact with the rail.
 

43096

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Is the maximum speed for a single light engine that high now? I thought that there was a ceiling of 75 or 80 mph, although I never understood why.
67s are passed for 100mph light engine due to their superior brake performance. Rather handy for the ECML Thunderbirds going to clear the line.
 

AndrewE

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I think it’s 60/75 dependent on line speed?
Just looked in an old Sectional Appendix or two, in the 1960 versions under "Standard speed restrictions" it says 65 for light diesel and electric main line locos and a range of lower speeds for Passenger / MT and freight, tender and tank locos. By 1977 it only mentions Diesel Electric Shunting Locos (15mph at any time) in the SA but cross-refers to the working manual for rail staff.
That was then, this is now! except that I bet class 08s are still limited to 15mph...
 

ExRes

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67s are passed for 100mph light engine due to their superior brake performance. Rather handy for the ECML Thunderbirds going to clear the line.

And that's how it was when I last drove them in 2000, there was a rumour that they were going to be passed for 125mph light engine at that time because of their braking ability, I won't relate exactly the general reaction to that, suffice to say the people who were suggesting that were to receive invites to be in the cab in place of the drivers ......
 

EE Andy b1

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I think it’s 60/75 dependent on line speed?

Yep for line speeds above 90mph Light engine running is 75mph maximum, line speeds below 90mph LE running is 60mph maximum.

Didn't know Class 67s were ever allowed to run at 100mph LE at any time. Wow what a wild ride!!
 

Grumpy

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Railnet effectively existed in two versions the original planned and delivered version and then the never implemented post 2001 limited version. SNIP. .
That's a most comprehensive posting. Your memory cells are certainly in better condition than mine. RM's Bristol rail hub must have had a fragile business case if trains were still serving the likes of Newport, Cardiff and Exeter stations.
 

GrimShady

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They should have ordered UK gauge IE 201s which are the pax version of the 66.
 

Chris217

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They should have ordered UK gauge IE 201s which are the pax version of the 66.

Good call. I loved the 201s whenever I visited Ireland. Much beefier sounds than the 67s.
Some great replies to this thread btw.
Thank you.
 

AndrewE

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They should have ordered UK gauge IE 201s which are the pax version of the 66.
er, Wikipedia says
Unfortunately, the locomotives have had a chequered service history. The authors of Jane's Train Recognition Guide noted that IÉ had had problems with engine fires and bogie cracks.
 
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