ATO on Thameslink (?) and December 2019 timetable discussion

[bramling]

SSR resignalling is generally regarded to be one of the things that Metronet got right. It would certainly be much further on the way by now, if not completed, had TfL not cancelled it just because it was a Metronet plan.

And likewise the Victoria Line Upgrade with its associated 09 stock is also regarded as a success. The Victoria Line’s performance is arguably better than the Jubilee and Northern, although these two lines had the disadvantage of not having a fleet renewal at the same time. Metronet were by no means all bad.

 

[387star]

And likewise the Victoria Line Upgrade with its associated 09 stock is also regarded as a success. The Victoria Line’s performance is arguably better than the Jubilee and Northern, although these two lines had the disadvantage of not having a fleet renewal at the same time. Metronet were by no means all bad.

Vic stock the last with no through corridors ?

Shame it's a dusty sauna down there

 

[387star]

It’s actually 20 through the core today, the 2nd Littlehampton runs but doesn’t go to Littlehampton (southbound am peak).

On top of this the weekend service at least on a Saturday needs improving
Horsham to Peterborough do not run on weekends. On Friday night as a result the last train to Peterborough from Horsham terminates at Blackfriars

Cambridge to Brighton will presumably go half hourly on Saturdays?

Then there is the Rainham service which only runs from Kentish Town on weekends rather than Luton. The Orpington service which usually starts at Kentish Town doesn't run.

Edit

Horsham to Peterborough services finally run on Saturdays from December (twice an hour )
Brighton to Cambridge remains once an hour in Saturdays
On Sundays the Cambridge service only runs to Gatwick Airport as it does now

 

[387star]

Interestingly Southern OBS' often only refer to the Bedford TL services when announcing places to change to at East Croydon rather than mentioning Cambridge or Peterborough although some merely state 'change here for Thameslink services'

That said when an OBS suggests changing at Horsham for Peterborough one has to wonder who would want such a slow option given the service runs very slowly to East Croydon (all stops to Horley then via Redhill) and on top of that there are faster trains from Kings Cross

 

[Ianno87]

On Sundays the Cambridge service only runs to Gatwick Airport as it does now

IIRC from the consultation, running Cambridge trains south of Gatwick on Sundays has never been promised/proposed.

 

[Mojo]

And we know what happened to Metronet. Their false promises were not related to technical issues.

My post was in relation to simply you denying that it was a decade behind plan, and nothing else. If something was promised to be delivered by 2011 and still hasn't been, I think the point that you made saying it was only about five years late is incorrect

 

[hwl]

My post was in relation to simply you denying that it was a decade behind plan, and nothing else. If something was promised to be delivered by 2011 and still hasn't been, I think the point that you made saying it was only about five years late is incorrect

Exactly - completion it will be 10 years late if there is no further slippage...

 

[Goldfish62]

My post was in relation to simply you denying that it was a decade behind plan, and nothing else. If something was promised to be delivered by 2011 and still hasn't been, I think the point that you made saying it was only about five years late is incorrect

I concede. You are indeed correct.

 

[Tim M]

The constant delays with the subsurface lines have been caused due to the technical complexity of the requirement, ie, a large network with multiple flat junctions. It's about five years late, not well over a decade.

I’ve just checked my CV as I was deeply involved in the Westinghouse bid for the LU PPP signalling sub-contracts, that was in 2002/2003. The Victoria Line project went ahead as part of BCV (Bakerloo/Central/Victoria lines) as did SSL (Sub-Surface Lines) being sub-sub-contracts awarded via the rolling stock builder Bombardier by Metronet as part of the overall PPP contracts. For various reasons SSL PPP with Metronet was stopped with the signalling cancelled and compensation paid to Westinghouse.

As far as I can remember SSL should all have been completed within ten years or maybe less. So the ‘well over a decade’ comment is correct. Remember after SSL PPP was cancelled a new contract was awarded to Bombardier with a target date to finish in 2018. When that failed Thales were awarded the replacement contract with an intended completion also of an unrealistic 2018. Meanwhile Victoria Line signalling has proved to be a success, and I hear of possible upgrades to the 1980’s system on the Central Line, installed by, you’ve guessed it, Westinghouse.

I retired six years ago so have exhausted my knowledge on this subject.

 

[Bald Rick]

Back on topic... I saw a 700 going through the core yesterday, out of passenger service, and I’m fairly sure it was doing ATO testing.

 

[Taunton]

The Victoria Line’s performance is arguably better than the Jubilee and Northern, although these two lines had the disadvantage of not having a fleet renewal at the same time. Metronet were by no means all bad.

I think many of us have an understanding of which participants in the Metronet jv made a competent contribution, which ones were just along for the ride, and which ones were out to unashamedly milk TfL. I think the Regulator and the NAO shared this opinion.

 

[365 Networker]

Horsham to Peterborough services finally run on Saturdays from December (twice an hour )
Brighton to Cambridge remains once an hour in Saturdays
On Sundays the Cambridge service only runs to Gatwick Airport as it does now

Does this mean 365s will not run on Saturdays anymore?

 

[Radley]

It seems to me that is the reality. :/

Though it’s not the end of the world, GN do run three semi fast services to KGX from PTO: 8:04, 9:04 and 10:04. I’d like to think these would be 365s still in the new timetable (same with evening but starts from KGX).

I’m a bit sad about these changes, because Saturday is the day I go out on Great Northern, as it’s pretty much the only day where 365s operate for the whole day.

I mean it’s not like 365s are not being used anymore, but their usage is shortening in general. :/

 

[philthetube]

I know this will sound incredibly fatuous, but it does seem slightly ironic that drivers need training how not to drive a train! (Apologies to all drivers).

Very true, anyone could do it, however the training is all about what to do when things go wrong, the SSR drivers are getting plenty of practice in this.

I would guess that for drivers with Stock and line knowledge the training will not tale a huge amount of time.

 

[bramling]

It seems to me that is the reality. :/

Though it’s not the end of the world, GN do run three semi fast services to KGX from PTO: 8:04, 9:04 and 10:04. I’d like to think these would be 365s still in the new timetable (same with evening but starts from KGX).

I’m a bit sad about these changes, because Saturday is the day I go out on Great Northern, as it’s pretty much the only day where 365s operate for the whole day.

I mean it’s not like 365s are not being used anymore, but their usage is shortening in general. :/

On the plus side the 365s aren’t being thrashed to death any more on intensive diagrams and with high availability demanded. Likewise they’re generally avoiding the late-night “vomit comet” services, so are generally nowadays very smartly turned out inside. I’m sitting on one now and it’s immaculate.

There will be some weekend 365 activity in the new timetable, but not the all-day fest we’ve had for the last 18 months.

 

[387star]

On the plus side the 365s aren’t being thrashed to death any more on intensive diagrams and with high availability demanded. Likewise they’re generally avoiding the late-night “vomit comet” services, so are generally nowadays very smartly turned out inside. I’m sitting on one now and it’s immaculate.

There will be some weekend 365 activity in the new timetable, but not the all-day fest we’ve had for the last 18 months.

Still no peterborough to horsham service on a sunday but perhaps this was never planned

Cambridge to brighton on a saturday remains once an hour not sure if this will go two hourly in the future like the peterborough to horsham service. I would imagine these are in the hands of 365s starting at kings cross or perhaps missing altogether

 

[387star]

orpington still not runnng on weekends

 

[JonathanH]

Cambridge to brighton on a saturday remains once an hour

I think the preference is to continue to provide a through Hertford North service to Stevenage before completion of platform 5. Brighton to Cambridge can only be once an hour until that is completed.

 

[387star]

Very few southern OBS' say change at croydon for cambridge and peterborough but always mention luton and bedford

 

[DerekC]

Very true, anyone could do it, however the training is all about what to do when things go wrong, the SSR drivers are getting plenty of practice in this.

I would guess that for drivers with Stock and line knowledge the training will not tale a huge amount of time.

The training will also be about how to make the transition from conventional to ETCS to ATO and back, and (yes, that's right) what to do if it goes wrong. The drivers are still in charge and expected to supervise the ATO, for example in slippery rail conditions on the outside sections.

 

[swt_passenger]

Still no peterborough to horsham service on a sunday but perhaps this was never planned

Cambridge to brighton on a saturday remains once an hour not sure if this will go two hourly in the future like the peterborough to horsham service. I would imagine these are in the hands of 365s starting at kings cross or perhaps missing altogether

It’s all a bit non-specific, but in the last major GTR consultation document the Peterborough and Cambridge services above are both described as 2 tph “Daily”. There are a number of other services marked either Mon-Fri or Mon-Sat, or peaks only, but as far as I can work out the plain “Daily” does include Sunday.

 

[SprinterMan]

Just to confirm the plans with the Thameslink timetable for Saturdays & Sundays:

Saturday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (same as now)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton (currently 1tph, dependent on platform 5 at Stevenage)
2tph Peterborough to Horsham (begins in December)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (same as now)
2tph Luton to Rainham (currently only running Kentish Town to Rainham)
2tph Kentish Town to Orpington (does not run)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

2tph Cambridge to Maidstone (does not run, unlikely to run in near future)

Sunday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1tph extended to Three Bridges, same as now)
1tph Cambridge to Gatwick Airport (same as now, runs opposite path for Peterborough to Horsham service)
1tph Peterborough to Horsham (likely to begin in May 2020, will run opposite Cambridge to Gatwick Airport service)
2tph Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (pm only, am Blackfriars to Sutton, same as now)
2tph Kentish Town to Rainham (same as now)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

 

[Need2]

Just to confirm the plans with the Thameslink timetable for Saturdays & Sundays:

Saturday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (same as now)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton (currently 1tph, dependent on platform 5 at Stevenage)
2tph Peterborough to Horsham (begins in December)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (same as now)
2tph Luton to Rainham (currently only running Kentish Town to Rainham)
2tph Kentish Town to Orpington (does not run)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

2tph Cambridge to Maidstone (does not run, unlikely to run in near future)

Sunday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1tph extended to Three Bridges, same as now)
1tph Cambridge to Gatwick Airport (same as now, runs opposite path for Peterborough to Horsham service)
1tph Peterborough to Horsham (likely to begin in May 2020, will run opposite Cambridge to Gatwick Airport service)
2tph Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (pm only, am Blackfriars to Sutton, same as now)
2tph Kentish Town to Rainham (same as now)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

Just to confirm the plans with the Thameslink timetable for Saturdays & Sundays:

Saturday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (same as now)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton (currently 1tph, dependent on platform 5 at Stevenage)
2tph Peterborough to Horsham (begins in December)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (same as now)
2tph Luton to Rainham (currently only running Kentish Town to Rainham)
2tph Kentish Town to Orpington (does not run)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

2tph Cambridge to Maidstone (does not run, unlikely to run in near future)

Sunday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1tph extended to Three Bridges, same as now)
1tph Cambridge to Gatwick Airport (same as now, runs opposite path for Peterborough to Horsham service)
1tph Peterborough to Horsham (likely to begin in May 2020, will run opposite Cambridge to Gatwick Airport service)
2tph Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (pm only, am Blackfriars to Sutton, same as now)
2tph Kentish Town to Rainham (same as now)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

Those attached timetables are from 2018!

 

[swt_passenger]

Those attached timetables are from 2018!

Yes, but it answers the question about “were there any plans for Peterborough/Horsham on Sunday” made in the first part of post #46.

 

[Aictos]

Just to confirm the plans with the Thameslink timetable for Saturdays & Sundays:

Saturday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (same as now)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton (currently 1tph, dependent on platform 5 at Stevenage)
2tph Peterborough to Horsham (begins in December)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (same as now)
2tph Luton to Rainham (currently only running Kentish Town to Rainham)
2tph Kentish Town to Orpington (does not run)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

2tph Cambridge to Maidstone (does not run, unlikely to run in near future)

Sunday
2tph Bedford to Brighton (same as now)
2tph Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1tph extended to Three Bridges, same as now)
1tph Cambridge to Gatwick Airport (same as now, runs opposite path for Peterborough to Horsham service)
1tph Peterborough to Horsham (likely to begin in May 2020, will run opposite Cambridge to Gatwick Airport service)
2tph Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon (same as now)
2tph St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Junction (pm only, am Blackfriars to Sutton, same as now)
2tph Kentish Town to Rainham (same as now)
2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (same as now)

Question why does the Rainham to Luton service only run as far as Kentish Town on Saturdays at the moment?

Secondly, I believe the above will happen when I see it namely because if they were going to extend the service I mentioned above then surely it would have been in RTT and other online journey planners by now?

 

[BRX]

Plus rumours and persistent suggestions of more trains around the Wimbledon loop in to the bay platforms when the Sevenoaks trains are out the way, which would mean more trains crossing in front of each other South of the river.

What is the latest on this - is it anything more than rumour?

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the latest on this - is it anything more than rumour?

There will eventually be 2tph Southern services round the loop running between London Bridge and Blackfriars, and vice versa. They’re described in the GTR 2018 timetable consultation.

 

[BRX]

There will eventually be 2tph Southern services round the loop running between London Bridge and Blackfriars, and vice versa. They’re described in the GTR 2018 timetable consultation.

Thanks, these ones I assume?



So they can only start once certain Thameslink services start running through the core rather than terminating in the Blackfriars bay platforms, is that right?

 

[Bald Rick]

There will eventually be 2tph Southern services round the loop running between London Bridge and Blackfriars, and vice versa. They’re described in the GTR 2018 timetable consultation.

Off the cards for now AIUI.

 

[hwl]

Off the cards for now AIUI.

Permanently or just for a couple of years?