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Northern - is the bad PR unfair?

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Philip

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Northern aren't exactly flavour of the year with many rail passengers right now for various reasons, but are they really doing a bad job or do people just need something to whip in order to vent their frustrations at the recent problems? Northern are not the mighty all-conquering king of the railway, that title belongs to Virgin, so perhaps it is easier for people to blame Northern?

Northern have invested in new rolling stock which is to their credit, within the costs they can afford to pay. Ordering 2 and 3 coach trains instead of 3 and 4 gives greater flexibility for doubled-up working, because of platform lengths. And it is not their fault that the new trains are suffering teething problems - surely CAF are to blame here? Equally the May 2018 timetable shambles was not the fault of Northern - they simply had to fit around new TPE services, the new poorly thought out infrastructure and their own franchise requirements, which inevitably led to delays and cancellations. The lack of Sunday working is down to traincrew not working their Sunday, which they're entitled not to, and this current arrangement goes back to well before Northern (or even the old Northern) were around. Some of the trains don't have the cleanest of interiors, but you can put some of the blame on the passengers for this, and the mess they create.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Equally the May 2018 timetable shambles was not the fault of Northern - they simply had to fit around new TPE services, the new poorly thought out infrastructure and their own franchise requirements, which inevitably led to delays and cancellations.

The shambles is not primarily caused by the timetable itself, it (just the same as the near-identical shambles on LNR) is primarily caused by the traincrew and unit diagrams (far more by the former than the latter), and that is totally Northern's fault. Everything is too interworked and complex, so if a problem occurs the service does not recover. They should not be allowed off the hook on this one.

Thameslink manage to operate a timetable including lots of through running through a congested central area far better, primarily because of a "keep it simple" approach to crew and unit diagramming and decent layovers at the outer ends.

I'd quote the 700s as helping, but in my observation 195s eat crowds almost as well despite the far higher comfort level.

As for Sundays, they either need to bite the bullet of bringing Sunday into the working week (at least for new staff), stop hacking the current staff off so they won't volunteer, or increase the pay until they do, as everyone has their price.
 

Harpers Tate

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I think the "problems" at Northern are long-term, long-standing, likely to continue and not substantially related to who it is that is currently operating the network. As you say, the underlying cause for much of the present difficulty can be placed elsewhere - not least with the Government for restricting what they can and can't do and/or will be funded for doing - and any such restriction is unlikely (IMO) to differ whether it be Serco, Abellio, First, Arriva or the Government themselves who run it.

One thing that should have been begun many, many years ago (IMO) is for all new recruits to be placed on a true 7-day contract rather than the ongoing issue over Sunday "volunteers" and its attendant effects on Sunday services notably in the North West. But none of the operators have chosen to do this. That's just a single example of the legacy that any operator will inherit. Same goes for station and track "rationalisation" work of the past, that is now having an effect on permitted train lengths. And so on.
 

Bantamzen

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I think it all depends on where you are on the Northern network. It does seem to that different practices between the North Western side & the Yorkshire side have caused lots of problems to the west of the Pennines. As a regular user of Northern in West Yorkshire, whilst there have been issues, they don't seem to have been anything like those elsewhere. By and large my daily commute is pretty much stable and reliable, with any delays counted in minutes rather than tens of minutes, or indeed hours. Even the rollout of the new stock (well the 331s at least) seem to have gone more smoothly, if not perfectly.

Certainly in my neck of the woods we've had increases to Sunday services that have held together, station improvements, some earlier services in the weekdays & generally a reasonable service. Yes there have been snags, mainly around the implementation of the TVMs & MCard renewals, but thanks to a member of their team who visits here regularly those seem to have been resolved. So I've really no particular problem with them here, I get from A to B & back again as I need to, and I do quite like the refurbished 333s and the odd 331 that pass through my area.

One thing I do feel strongly about is that the franchise is somewhat hamstrung by the DfT franchise requirements, particularly around reducing subsidies at a time when the TOC is also expected to lease new / more stock. I don't mind paying more for my journeys within reason, but I do fear the firestorm taking place in the North West will lead to some knee jerk reactions, especially if as rumoured the franchise is handed back. The franchise needs time to recover from the perfect storm of late running engineering, timetable meltdowns & late running stock rollouts. But I fear that whatever happens to the franchise, the DfT will lean on the passengers more & more to recover their subsidies, then point to falling numbers to cut services to concentrate more on politically sensitive areas.
 

ainsworth74

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I think it all depends on where you are on the Northern network.

Absolutely this. It depends as I refer to it "which" Northern you use either to commute or for leisure travel on the weekend (or both!). I'm up in the North East and I travel semi-regularly on services in Yorkshire (West, East and South) and my daily commute is to and from Middlesbrough.

My experience is that my daily commute is usually on time (or only a few minutes delayed), the trains are usually clean and the conductors are a very visible presence. There has been no deterioration in service since the franchise change and indeed there have been service improvements. 2tph beyond Middlesbrough towards Saltburn until almost the close of service (compared to 1tph from around 1900ish onwards before), Bishop Auckland now has an hourly service throughout the week (rather than two hourly), we now regularly see 158s and see a lot more 156s as well. In Yorkshire it's a similar picture. More services, more Sunday services (though not all the ones that were promised), brand new trains appearing regularly as well as more modern second hand units (170s for instance).

So if you use east side Northern it's a fairly positive picture overall (it's certainly not perfect but the direction of travel, in my view, is broadly going the right way). Meanwhile in the west it's a very different picture. Every Sunday a raft of services, including entire groups of services are cancelled (try travelling to Clitheroe or intermediate stations to Stalybridge from Manchester Victoria). Last Sunday was better than I've seen it but have a look at RTT at Victoria or Piccadilly (filter for Northern) and it's a raft of cancelled and delayed trains. Now do the same search at Leeds and it's a totally different picture. Most trains are on time, a few are couple of minutes late and there's an occasional cancellation. And that's a pattern that continues into the week and has been going on for months even before the May 18 timetable change there were rumblings of poor performance.

So do Northern deserve the bad PR? I honestly believe it depends on which Northern you use. East side Northern I'd say the bad press isn't justified. West side Northern though?
 

Bantamzen

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Absolutely this. It depends as I refer to it "which" Northern you use either to commute or for leisure travel on the weekend (or both!). I'm up in the North East and I travel semi-regularly on services in Yorkshire (West, East and South) and my daily commute is to and from Middlesbrough.

My experience is that my daily commute is usually on time (or only a few minutes delayed), the trains are usually clean and the conductors are a very visible presence. There has been no deterioration in service since the franchise change and indeed there have been service improvements. 2tph beyond Middlesbrough towards Saltburn until almost the close of service (compared to 1tph from around 1900ish onwards before), Bishop Auckland now has an hourly service throughout the week (rather than two hourly), we now regularly see 158s and see a lot more 156s as well. In Yorkshire it's a similar picture. More services, more Sunday services (though not all the ones that were promised), brand new trains appearing regularly as well as more modern second hand units (170s for instance).

So if you use east side Northern it's a fairly positive picture overall (it's certainly not perfect but the direction of travel, in my view, is broadly going the right way). Meanwhile in the west it's a very different picture. Every Sunday a raft of services, including entire groups of services are cancelled (try travelling to Clitheroe or intermediate stations to Stalybridge from Manchester Victoria). Last Sunday was better than I've seen it but have a look at RTT at Victoria or Piccadilly (filter for Northern) and it's a raft of cancelled and delayed trains. Now do the same search at Leeds and it's a totally different picture. Most trains are on time, a few are couple of minutes late and there's an occasional cancellation. And that's a pattern that continues into the week and has been going on for months even before the May 18 timetable change there were rumblings of poor performance.

So do Northern deserve the bad PR? I honestly believe it depends on which Northern you use. East side Northern I'd say the bad press isn't justified. West side Northern though?

I don't often use Northern in the North West, but I readily acknowledge that they need some urgent action to resolve the obvious issues such as crewing, diagramming etc.

Interestingly though, not long after the infamous timetable meltdown, I overheard a couple of passengers on an Aire service complaining bitterly how bad the service was every day, they even quoted the Mayor of Manchester saying they agreed completely with him & "something needed to be done". I would have felt some empathy for them had they been regular users on the west side, however knowing them by sight I knew that they work in the same building as me & have very similar commutes to me. Sometimes people like to project problems onto themselves, even when they are not affected by them!
 

theblackwatch

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Northern has had a bit of a bad press over things it doesn't have control over - for example, the delays in the Bolton electrification and the late delivery of the 195s. 'Taking the franchise off them' as demanded by some isn't going to resolve things.

Having said that, the firm really doesn't help itself. Just over a week back, I was at Leeds waiting for a service across the Calder Valley. The train which forms the 08.18 ex Leeds (the 07.46 terminator from Manchester Victoria) was cancelled, so I suspected my train wouldn't run. It turned out this was correct, but it was 'on time' according to the screens and the cancellation wasn't announced to intending passengers until 08.20. Then when I sent a message to their Twitter team about it, it was claimed by them that it was running and 2 minutes late. I despair sometimes at how these rail firms shoot themselves in the foot.
 

Philip

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What do people think of the general level of customer service from the 'ground staff' of Northern (ie. booking office clerks, guards, dispatchers, gateline operatives)?
 

Bantamzen

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What do people think of the general level of customer service from the 'ground staff' of Northern (ie. booking office clerks, guards, dispatchers, gateline operatives)?

In recent year I have found the staff to be generally pleasant & professional. Obviously there have been exceptions with the odd grump from time to time, although to be honest I just put this down to them having a bad day. I should know, I get grumpy from time to time! :D
 

Philip

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The shambles is not primarily caused by the timetable itself, it (just the same as the near-identical shambles on LNR) is primarily caused by the traincrew and unit diagrams (far more by the former than the latter), and that is totally Northern's fault. Everything is too interworked and complex, so if a problem occurs the service does not recover. They should not be allowed off the hook on this one.

But Northern could only diagram units and traincrew to fit around both the TPE services and the franchise commitments they had to adhere to, so you could say they didn't have much choice in this aspect.
 

Bletchleyite

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What do people think of the general level of customer service from the 'ground staff' of Northern (ie. booking office clerks, guards, dispatchers, gateline operatives)?

Good with the exception of the private security guards manning gatelines who are and always have been utterly useless and need replacing with proper railwaymen.

Indeed, my experience is of an awful TOC held together by highly committed frontline staff.
 

quantinghome

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The bad PR is perfectly justified. Arriva are running a terrible service and people are losing trust.

There are two issues here. The first is the longstanding lack of investment in rail in the North. The second is the deterioration in reliability we have seen since Arriva took over the franchise. The first issue is not the cause of the second. The previous northern franchisee was up against the same infrastructure issues, yet managed to run a reasonably reliable service. My local service (same as Bantamzen's) was overcrowded but generally on time. Since Arriva took over, there has been a steady deterioration in the service, particularly in the last few months where we are seeing late running and peak time cancellations several times a week. It hasn't been subject to any major timetable change.

The problem with the way the railways are structured is there's always someone else to blame if you've a mind for it. Network Rail, DfT, train manufacturers, other TOCs, the unions, etc. But ultimately Northern are providing a service. In what other area would we accept excuses like this? Imagine if an airline ordered new planes which were late into service and then turned out to be unreliable, resulting in cancelled flights. The airline would be toast. We wouldn't accept an excuse that it was the manufacturer's fault. That may be the cause, but it's the responsibility of the operator to ensure that the new planes only come into service when they are ready. Ultimately Arriva's plan for the franchise required everything - timetables, new trains, to run perfectly. No sensible project manager would plan like that.
 

AK1982

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Well can only comment on the western side as that is what I use but based on that then yes I think the criticism is justified.

Use the 07.09 service from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road as an example, this service used to be the 07.05 TPE service to Scarborough and was 9 times out of 10 formed of 6 carriages. Now we get a maximum of 4 but normally 2 or 3 which are often full and standing before Warrington and often fail to call at Birchwood and Irlam.
 

ohgoditsjames

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Northern have invested in new rolling stock which is to their credit, within the costs they can afford to pay. Ordering 2 and 3 coach trains instead of 3 and 4 gives greater flexibility for doubled-up working, because of platform lengths.

If ordering shorter trains than required is to be justified with the intention of doubling up units then why weren't the trains designed with gangways? In this day and age ordering 2 car units is outrageous and shows that lessons haven't been learnt with the chronic overcrowding issues, they haven't even ordered enough trains to double up every service at peak times.
 
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tonysk14

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The bad PR is perfectly justified. Arriva are running a terrible service and people are losing trust.

There are two issues here. The first is the longstanding lack of investment in rail in the North. The second is the deterioration in reliability we have seen since Arriva took over the franchise. The first issue is not the cause of the second. The previous northern franchisee was up against the same infrastructure issues, yet managed to run a reasonably reliable service. My local service (same as Bantamzen's) was overcrowded but generally on time. Since Arriva took over, there has been a steady deterioration in the service, particularly in the last few months where we are seeing late running and peak time cancellations several times a week. It hasn't been subject to any major timetable change.

The problem with the way the railways are structured is there's always someone else to blame if you've a mind for it. Network Rail, DfT, train manufacturers, other TOCs, the unions, etc. But ultimately Northern are providing a service. In what other area would we accept excuses like this? Imagine if an airline ordered new planes which were late into service and then turned out to be unreliable, resulting in cancelled flights. The airline would be toast. We wouldn't accept an excuse that it was the manufacturer's fault. That may be the cause, but it's the responsibility of the operator to ensure that the new planes only come into service when they are ready. Ultimately Arriva's plan for the franchise required everything - timetables, new trains, to run perfectly. No sensible project manager would plan like that.

Ahhh. You mean like the B787. Over 5 tears late into service and then grounded because of battery problems. Or of course the 737 Max grounded worldwide for what will probably be over a year. Of course nothing eer goes wrong with airlines.
 

jamesst

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I'd agree with previous posters, the Western side is far worse than the Eastern side.
However I'd also argue that Northern gets a far far worse press than Tpe which in my experience is just as bad with frequent delays and cancellations, shortforming and the same weekend staffing problems.
I can only assume Tpe have some friends in the media...
 

Bantamzen

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The bad PR is perfectly justified. Arriva are running a terrible service and people are losing trust.

There are two issues here. The first is the longstanding lack of investment in rail in the North. The second is the deterioration in reliability we have seen since Arriva took over the franchise. The first issue is not the cause of the second. The previous northern franchisee was up against the same infrastructure issues, yet managed to run a reasonably reliable service. My local service (same as Bantamzen's) was overcrowded but generally on time. Since Arriva took over, there has been a steady deterioration in the service, particularly in the last few months where we are seeing late running and peak time cancellations several times a week. It hasn't been subject to any major timetable change.

The problem with the way the railways are structured is there's always someone else to blame if you've a mind for it. Network Rail, DfT, train manufacturers, other TOCs, the unions, etc. But ultimately Northern are providing a service. In what other area would we accept excuses like this? Imagine if an airline ordered new planes which were late into service and then turned out to be unreliable, resulting in cancelled flights. The airline would be toast. We wouldn't accept an excuse that it was the manufacturer's fault. That may be the cause, but it's the responsibility of the operator to ensure that the new planes only come into service when they are ready. Ultimately Arriva's plan for the franchise required everything - timetables, new trains, to run perfectly. No sensible project manager would plan like that.

A qualifier I would add to your airline analogy would be that parts of the airspace would be either closed or limited to certain types of aircraft due to late running engineering (or should that be airineering?) works, resulting in airlines having to change their schedules at the last minute or use smaller, slower craft to replace those unable to be used.

I'm afraid you cannot totally separate the lack of investment & operator's performance in the North West, they are intertwined. Yes Arriva should have done more to resolve the issue around crewing, diagrams and even trying to get a recovery plan in sooner once it was obvious the May 2018 meltdown was kicking in. But if they can't use EMUs as planned, or if there are issue getting new stock out for testing because engineering works are overrunning, the knock on effects will doubtless be, and indeed were swift & wide-ranging. The whole industry, and the DfT need to look at last year's events and ask some very fundamental questions of themselves. Would another operator have coped any better, quite honestly I doubt it. Are they totally to blame for the situation, not in my opinion.

Threatening a TOC with toast-making is simply going to see them do a National Express / GNER, and hand off the problem to someone else, i.e. the DfT. Worse still in a more or less wholly privatised industry, it is becoming increasingly difficult to bring in new players as others beat a hasty retreat. There may come a time when the government has no other choice to bring back British Rail, and wholly fund all the improvements, stock procurements etc that are so desperately needed. How do you image that going when the government will be trying to cut budgets?
 

Darandio

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My experience is that my daily commute is usually on time (or only a few minutes delayed), the trains are usually clean and the conductors are a very visible presence. There has been no deterioration in service since the franchise change and indeed there have been service improvements. 2tph beyond Middlesbrough towards Saltburn until almost the close of service (compared to 1tph from around 1900ish onwards before), Bishop Auckland now has an hourly service throughout the week (rather than two hourly), we now regularly see 158s and see a lot more 156s as well. In Yorkshire it's a similar picture. More services, more Sunday services (though not all the ones that were promised), brand new trains appearing regularly as well as more modern second hand units (170s for instance).

Have to agree with all of this, we get to see a very different side of Northern over here.

Northern are not the mighty all-conquering king of the railway, that title belongs to Virgin

Is that you Mr Branson? Have you been editing posts again?
 

underbank

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Whilst I accept and respect the long term problems inherited, the electrification delays, new train faults, etc., that aren't the fault of Northern, what I can and will blame them for is their woeful customer service. Many times, their website, social media accounts, etc are just woeful and sometimes give the wrong information/advice - that's just making a bad situation (out of their control) even worse by factors inside their control.

A case in point. I had booked a couple of days to London as a treat for my young son after we had to cancel a summer holiday to America because my wife was undergoing chemotherapy. What should have been simple turned into a stressful nightmare simply because of Northern's poor customer service. We booked from Carnforth to London, first train Sunday morning, 09.29 (ish)Northern from Carnforth to Preston then changing at Preston to Virgin's first train of the day southbound (11.00 ish). Checked online Saturday to see the 9.29 had disappeared from Northern's website and RTT - no other trains could get us to Preston by 11am so we were stuffed. So, Saturday afternoon, I contacted Northern by social media (Twitter & Facebook), via their website, and also tried to call them, to confirm they'd cancelled the train and ask whether RRB would be available instead. No answer to the phone call, no reply to my email. Finally got a twitter reply to say it had been cancelled and that they were "hoping" to organise RRB but couldn't confirm. So that basically left me having to make alternative arrangements which was booking a taxi (at high cost!). Got up early Sunday morning and checked RTT to see the train had actually left Barrow on time and was showing as 9.29 for Carnforth - now I didn't know what to do - cancel the taxi and risk it? I tried contacting Northern by social media, but of course, no reply as they don't work Sunday mornings! I looked on Northern website - no sign of it on their timetable. Waiting a bit longer and saw it on RTT stopping at intermediate stations at the Barrow end, so took the risk and went to Carnforth. Looked at platform displays - not showing. Tried pressing the "help" button on the platform - no reply. So still didn't know whether to wait or get a taxi. Still following it on RTT and it was still on the way and stopping at stations. So decided to wait and risk it. Platform departure board still showing nothing. Getting worried because no one else was on the platform - a few people came but looked at the screen, saw no train, so went away again. Then, bang on time, it came into the station, stopped and we got on. Platform screens still showing nothing, Northern website showing nothing.

What a way to run a franchise. Absolutely zilch customer help - presumably their SM and website help staff don't work weekends - pathetic really. If I hadn't been switched on enough to check RTT, I'd have had to assume it wasn't running and would have been left to my own arrangements - No RRB despite them saying there probably would be.

All that is definitely down to Northern's poor customer service. You can't run a railway without having customer services staff working when trains are operating - it's not a 9-5 Mon-Fri service. Bad enough that the first Sunday service was so late in the morning, but not to have any customer service at all is completely unacceptable.
 

underbank

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Would another operator have coped any better, quite honestly I doubt it.

Maybe not, but I'm sure other operators would have had a better customer service dept giving more accurate information to their travelling public, rather than either giving out no information at all at times, or giving out wrong advice.
 

SteveM70

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What do people think of the general level of customer service from the 'ground staff' of Northern (ie. booking office clerks, guards, dispatchers, gateline operatives)?

conductors - 99% good

despatchers - 90% good

contractor gateline staff at mcv - not great, sometimes downright unhelpful

roving goon squad - almost always bad
 

leonard clive

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I'm a regular in the North West on Northern, and to answer the questions above, I've always found the staff very helpful. Although I use a TfW station, the train staff I see are very good. (I'm not one of them).

What really chews me off though is sitting in a filthy train. There seems to be little regular cleaning and not much if any deep cleaning. Refurbs won't last if care is not taken on a day to day basis to look after it. One simple and relatively cheap step could really improve perceptions and the overall experience.
 

Bantamzen

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Maybe not, but I'm sure other operators would have had a better customer service dept giving more accurate information to their travelling public, rather than either giving out no information at all at times, or giving out wrong advice.

To be honest, judging by posts on these forums & in the wider social media, I'm not convinced they would faced with the same problems.
 

SteveM70

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I'm a regular in the North West on Northern, and to answer the questions above, I've always found the staff very helpful. Although I use a TfW station, the train staff I see are very good. (I'm not one of them).

What really chews me off though is sitting in a filthy train. There seems to be little regular cleaning and not much if any deep cleaning. Refurbs won't last if care is not taken on a day to day basis to look after it. One simple and relatively cheap step could really improve perceptions and the overall experience.

Yes. This

I was down in Cornwall recently and used a few trains, a combination of 150s and 158s, both obviously types that Northern also have.

The difference in internal cleanliness was incredible - the Northern trains have full and overflowing bins at 6am, dirty floors, deeply ingrained dirt in the seats etc etc.

Now I know we’re all dirty northern monkeys up here, but even that doesn’t account for what seems to be a lack of cleaning
 

underbank

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What really chews me off though is sitting in a filthy train. There seems to be little regular cleaning and not much if any deep cleaning. Refurbs won't last if care is not taken on a day to day basis to look after it. One simple and relatively cheap step could really improve perceptions and the overall experience.

Have to agree. Occasionally I have business travel to Leeds. I get the first train of the day from Carnforth. I'd say half the time it clearly hasn't been cleaned from the day before - litter strewn, dirty marks, etc., and sometimes the toilet is already blocked out of order. As it's first train of the day, Northern can't blame passengers - the blame lies fairly and squarely on Northern not cleaning/maintaining it overnight.
 

DarloRich

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Absolutely this. It depends as I refer to it "which" Northern you use either to commute or for leisure travel on the weekend (or both!). I'm up in the North East and I travel semi-regularly on services in Yorkshire (West, East and South) and my daily commute is to and from Middlesbrough.

My experience is that my daily commute is usually on time (or only a few minutes delayed), the trains are usually clean and the conductors are a very visible presence. There has been no deterioration in service since the franchise change and indeed there have been service improvements. 2tph beyond Middlesbrough towards Saltburn until almost the close of service (compared to 1tph from around 1900ish onwards before), Bishop Auckland now has an hourly service throughout the week (rather than two hourly), we now regularly see 158s and see a lot more 156s as well. In Yorkshire it's a similar picture. More services, more Sunday services (though not all the ones that were promised), brand new trains appearing regularly as well as more modern second hand units (170s for instance).

So if you use east side Northern it's a fairly positive picture overall (it's certainly not perfect but the direction of travel, in my view, is broadly going the right way). Meanwhile in the west it's a very different picture. Every Sunday a raft of services, including entire groups of services are cancelled (try travelling to Clitheroe or intermediate stations to Stalybridge from Manchester Victoria). Last Sunday was better than I've seen it but have a look at RTT at Victoria or Piccadilly (filter for Northern) and it's a raft of cancelled and delayed trains. Now do the same search at Leeds and it's a totally different picture. Most trains are on time, a few are couple of minutes late and there's an occasional cancellation. And that's a pattern that continues into the week and has been going on for months even before the May 18 timetable change there were rumblings of poor performance.

So do Northern deserve the bad PR? I honestly believe it depends on which Northern you use. East side Northern I'd say the bad press isn't justified. West side Northern though?

I agree. Well stated.
 

quantinghome

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There may come a time when the government has no other choice to bring back British Rail, and wholly fund all the improvements, stock procurements etc that are so desperately needed. How do you image that going when the government will be trying to cut budgets?

The government already wholly funds infrastructure improvements. Rolling stock is financed by the ROSCOs but they are paid back (at a profit) by the TOCs, who receive their income from the farebox and subsidy. At the end of the day the only sources of income to the railway are passengers, government and a bit of income from rent.

I believe the railways should be in public ownership (they kind of are already) but apart from the intercity network they shouldn't come under central government control. We need accountable TfL style bodies throughout the country to run (or at least fund and specify) regional services.
 

daprince

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Harrogate
On balance it's fair. Too often Starbeck - Leeds is late and/or the first train is cancelled. There used to be expresses straight through to Leeds, they have gone after May 2018. Frequency of service has in fairness gone up on the way back, but no change getting there, just takes longer. Much better in the summer generally reliable, fails too often over the autumn/winter.

I haven't seen a pacer for months which is a relief, at least whilst I am delayed I am dry. Turbostars are very welcome, 2 car 158's less so as they are overfull and people can't board by Headingley too frequently in the morning. Smartcards are convoluted and clunky and the mechanism for delay repay requires persistence and ideally a PA to process them for you.

Easy to fob off the blame to Network Rail, legacy issues the DfT and plenty of others, who clearly haven't helped, but Northern took the gig and have missed too many franchise commitments: no carnet tickets, no 4 tph Leeds-Harrogate no 2 tph York-Harrogate, for me to feel much sympathy as I watch my bank account empty. I see no evidence of the DfT holding them to account over this or any pro-active willingness from Northern to do what they signed up, for just a questionable ability to manage the status quo.

Starbeck Leeds return is about £8.50 a pop on a season ticket, for that I would like to be fairly sure I am going to get there, currently I factor in 20 mins slack each way and that's ****e.

Today I drove and good call, I would have been 45mins or so late for work. First train cancelled, second one 27 mins late. I doubt the fact Northern are making no money out of all of this isn't exactly putting fire in their belly to improve. Ultimately the northern area needs more more central subsidy and I suspect running on a different basis to the current model. Northern being allowed or forced to hand back the franchise may at least remove the bitter taste that is currently in my mouth. If this happened things may well get no worse and at least we would have admitted governments of all political hues needs to re-think how we fund the railways if we accept our urban road networks are at capacity at peak times. Improvement beyond the current modest gains might take time, but accepting that what we have is OK seems like a poor place to start.
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
Yes. This

I was down in Cornwall recently and used a few trains, a combination of 150s and 158s, both obviously types that Northern also have.

The difference in internal cleanliness was incredible - the Northern trains have full and overflowing bins at 6am, dirty floors, deeply ingrained dirt in the seats etc etc.

Now I know we’re all dirty northern monkeys up here, but even that doesn’t account for what seems to be a lack of cleaning

I live in south London so use the railways around here a bit but I also spend a bit of time travelling in Northern-land. One difference that strikes me is that, whereas in the south, it's mostly 'suits' who use the trains, Northern passengers appear to be much poorer - broken-down old pensioners, students, people in grubby overalls - more the sort of people who you would see using buses in the South.

Like it or not, that colours perceptions of what is acceptable in terms of things like train cleanliness, comfort levels and so on. I don't think filthy Pacer-type trains would have tolerated for one minute in southern England but they're deemed to be OK for the sorts of ignorant oiks that use trains in the North. I'm NOT saying that everyone up North is poor, rather that, with parking in most cities still readily available, 'nice' middle class types there tend to go everywhere by car and hardly ever venture onto trains, or indeed any form of public tansport.
 
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