Collision and derailment at Neville Hill Depot (13/11/2019)

[43096]

Your welcome!
Seems to me the most obvious outcome as apart from a few sets and power cars going to EMR for a short duration (supposedly) they are to be retired after 40 years of good work.
One or two will get preserved somewhere, but what about the rest, not much good to most TOCs now apart from maybe XC, Scotrail 7cities is a farce so why re-build a power car for little future use, just do up another one if need be. Only my personnel view of course.
It's time for trains to move on! Even if a backwards step.



Yep they would by LNERs insurers! But why bother now at it's age, move on, do another power car up if need be, there will be plenty going begging.

Why not read what has been written, particularly by “Derbyshire Gra”, rather than parroting the same stuff?

 

[superjohn]

Might not have been able to access NL once it got to Leeds.

Indeed and as the 2333 is the last working of a diagram covering in excess of 1000 miles in a day the set’s fuel would be low on arrival at Leeds. Probably not enough to reach another suitable refueling point.

 

[londonmidland]

Don’t know if this is related at all but I notice the track condition of the shunt line is pretty abysmal.

It’s full of rubbish, oily/greasy as well as uneven. I’m surprised its been left in such a state given its frequent usage.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Don’t know if this is related at all but I notice the track condition of the shunt line is pretty abysmal.

It’s full of rubbish, oily/greasy as well as uneven. I’m surprised its been left in such a state given its frequent usage.

I don't think that excuses the fact that the siding isn't long enough.. for a 9+2 HST and a 9-Car Azuma.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Why not read what has been written, particularly by “Derbyshire Gra”, rather than parroting the same stuff?

Get off your High Horse, no one else aloud to make a comment! I had read and posted my reply, THANKS!

 

[heedfan]

I don't think that excuses the fact that the siding isn't long enough.. for a 9+2 HST and a 9-Car Azuma.

If you are referring to the line where this collision took place, thats the arrival line, not the shunt neck. Plenty long enough and allows for permissive working as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does this incident mean trains are trapped inside the depot? A reliable source at Northern told our user group that Neville Hill is used by too many trains and awkward to access, suggesting that a better location for his company's depot would be Healey Mills, where there is plenty of railway land. But is it the right place operationally? Too far from Leeds, surely.

Off topic, but Healey Mills is on a strategic flood plain, so we don't want to be storing our shiny new trains there! As you say, it's also awkward for access to Leeds. Road access would also be an issue when staff based at Neville Hill will have bought houses on that side of Leeds. South/West of Wakefield there's a long gap between road bridges over the Calder, so if you're on the wrong side you've to make a fair old detour to get across, either to the M1 or right into Wakefield itself.

 

[superkev]

Does this incident mean trains are trapped inside the depot? A reliable source at Northern told our user group that Neville Hill is used by too many trains and awkward to access, suggesting that a better location for his company's depot would be Healey Mills, where there is plenty of railway land. But is it the right place operationally? Too far from Leeds, surely.

Getting off topic although my point was about Nevill Hill handling many more trains than its capacity may be a factor but could be improved with a new combined depot on the west side. Possibly an enlarged Holbeck or In the Copley area which would avoid the 2 track bottleneck to overcrowded NL.
I hear East Midland will be moving out when they get there new trains although Trans Pennine may then move in.
K

 

[ComUtoR]

If you are referring to the line where this collision took place, thats the arrival line, not the shunt neck. Plenty long enough and allows for permissive working as mentioned earlier in the thread.

Any idea what the linespeed is ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[bnm]

Any idea what the linespeed is ?

Cheers in advance.

15mph on the Down Hull Goods Loop.

 

[heedfan]

Any idea what the linespeed is ?

Cheers in advance.

According to the sectional appendix, 40 mph down to 15 mph.

 

[daikilo]

According to the sectional appendix, 40 mph down to 15 mph.

Permissive working is specific where "line speed" becomes to an extent irrelevant, stopping before obstacles (other trains) becomes the rule.

 

[heedfan]

Permissive working is specific where "line speed" becomes to an extent irrelevant, stopping before obstacles (other trains) becomes the rule.

Yes I'm aware, you are effectively driving to line of sight. I was trying to point out that the line speed drops from 40 on the DHGL to 15 on the access to Neville Hill section.

 

[HiPa]

Yes I'm aware, you are effectively driving to line of sight. I was trying to point out that the line speed drops from 40 on the DHGL to 15 on the access to Neville Hill section.

The 40mph line speed is unachievable. It’s a single yellow with a No.1 route indicator at Marsh Line Jn for the 15mph crossover to DHGL and then it’s a slow approach to the signal that either routes train back to Down Hull (main aspect) or Neville Hill (position light).

Intrigued, along with everyone else, as to what happened next - that’s some major damage plus derailment. Lots of speculation but I guess we’ll just have to wait for the RAIB report.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Permissive working is specific where "line speed" becomes to an extent irrelevant, stopping before obstacles (other trains) becomes the rule.

Permissive working - basically is...

The line towards the next stop signal or stop block may be occupied, proceed at caution towards the next signal or stop block being able to stop short of any obstruction.
So if proceeding under a position light signal (cats eyes) then travel at a speed if line occupied you can stop.

 

[ComUtoR]

For the pedantic folks : Definitions taken from the Rule Book

Permissive working
The person responsible: driver
20.1 Definition
Permissive working allows a second train to be signalled onto a running line that is already occupied so that more than one train at a time can be on the same line in a:
• block section
• signal section
• dead-end platform line

Proceeding at caution
The person responsible: driver
If instructed to proceed at caution, you must, as well as not exceeding any specified speed, proceed at a speed which takes account of conditions (such as the distance you can see to be clear), that will allow you to stop the train short of any train, vehicle or other obstruction, or the end of your movement authority.

 

[Gemz91]

Always surprises me how photos of these accidents appear quite fast online, particularly when theyv'e been taken in private areas. Don't think I'd share any photos if I had access to the trains.

(Of course unless these have been posted by the LNER itself).

 

[RichSwitch]

Two obvious questions:
1. Did the HST collide with the Azuma, or the Azuma collide with the HST?
2. Did the derailment occur before the collision, or as a result of the collision?
No doubt the RAIB will determine those answers.

 

[_toommm_]

Two obvious questions:
1. Did the HST collide with the Azuma, or the Azuma collide with the HST?
2. Did the derailment occur before the collision, or as a result of the collision?
No doubt the RAIB will determine those answers.

This is purely my opinion based on what I've seen, but
Q1) Unless the HST rolled back, it looks to be the Azuma colliding with the HST
Q2) I'd hazard a guess that the force from the crash stopped the front of the train (or slowed it down significantly), but the rear of the Axuma carried on travelling, causing it to zigzag and derail, as the coaches had nowhere else to go.

 

[Entertexthere]

Could they not bring one of the redundant HST power cars up north to replace 43300 or even better, bring 43002 out from York (not like it'll be doing anything in the museum other than sitting around)? it doesn't look viable to repair it for just 1-2 months.

 

[Ianno87]

Always surprises me how photos of these accidents appear quite fast online, particularly when theyv'e been taken in private areas. Don't think I'd share any photos if I had access to the trains.

(Of course unless these have been posted by the LNER itself).

One looks to have been taken from an overbridge, the other (I think the first one) appears to be from a passing train.

 

[class 9]

15mph on the Down Hull Goods Loop.

The collision was on the depot arrival line, although the back of the Azuma was still on the DHG.

 

[cactustwirly]

Could they not bring one of the redundant HST power cars up north to replace 43300 or even better, bring 43002 out from York (not like it'll be doing anything in the museum other than sitting around)? it doesn't look viable to repair it for just 1-2 months.

No point, the first HST gets withdrawn in 10 days

 

[Metal_gee_man]

That looks horrendous! I suspect there will be damage to the undercarriage and frame too

It's all fibreglass, the 395s when they've hit a tree or shopping trolley don't generally come out looking amazing, the front cone obviously retracts for coupling and that's 2/3rds of that damage, but the lights are damaged and the fibreglass upto the bulkhead in front of the drivers legs and computers is surprisingly buggered too, lucky its purely cosmetic/aerodynamic.

 

[rdlover777]

It's all fibreglass, the 395s when they've hit a tree or shopping trolley don't generally come out looking amazing, the front cone obviously retracts for coupling and that's 2/3rds of that damage, but the lights are damaged and the fibreglass upto the bulkhead in front of the drivers legs and computers is surprisingly buggered too, lucky its purely cosmetic/aerodynamic.

I've only heard of a 395 striking a van

 

[ComUtoR]

I've only heard of a 395 striking a van

They have suffered with front end collision damage after Drivers have forgotten to open the nose cone. Even low speed collisions result in some serious looking damage.

 

[ainsworth74]

I remain concerned by what appeared (from the poor image) to be crumpling on some of the vehicle ends of the 800. The front might look bad but I'm sure that most of that will be easily repairable by sticking a new nosecone on. But if some of the carriage ends have crumpled that could be more serious.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Always surprises me how photos of these accidents appear quite fast online, particularly when they've been taken in private areas. Don't think I'd share any photos if I had access to the trains.

(Of course unless these have been posted by the LNER itself).

Some of the images posted on various Facebook/“gen” groups are covered by confidentiality agreements, and that’s why I haven’t put anything on here - unlike someone earlier...

However, telling you that all 3 bogies have been rerailled and everything should be a-go soon is “gen”, in that type of speak - I could be watching the Bruff team from a nearby bridge, for all anyone needs to know.

 

[380101]

Another LNER HST power car 43313 has been damaged within Neville Hill today due to a collision as a result of 2 RSS Locotec class 08 locos attempting to pass it whilst there being insufficient clearance to do so. There is a video of it on one of the closed Facebook pages I'm a member of.

***APOLOGIES THE VIDEO GAVE THE IMPRESSION THIS HAPPENED TODAY WHEN IN FACT IT WAS 2 WEEKS AGO ***

 

[158747]

Another LNER HST power car 43313 has been damaged within Neville Hill today due to a collision as a result of 2 RSS Locotec class 08 locos attempting to pass it whilst there being insufficient clearance to do so. There is a video of it on one of the closed Facebook pages I'm a member of.

43313 was damaged in a collision at Bounds Green two weeks ago.