More GWR data errors

[yorkie]

Firstly, before I post my views on this matter, here are some examples of people reporting this problem:
https://twitter.com/Rochdale_Cowboy/status/1194150542701932544

Your app is only offering me off peak tickets today. Is there a special offer on?

Hello, this is a known fault with fares on the London Thames Valley route. We are working to rectify this, if you purchase a ticket for a journey we will honour this. - Bradley

https://twitter.com/charlie5tevens/status/1194165346481127425

I have an Off Peak Ticket to Slough from Brighton on the basis that I would be able to leave Paddington on the 8:08 or 8:21 service, I have just been told this isn’t the case and had to upgrade my ticket, even though the booking says it can, why is this?

https://twitter.com/arb_1965/status/1193857243810283525

Hi - the wrong price is being displayed in your app (and others) for peak day returns between Maidenhead and Paddington. It’s the off peak price. Tempting - can you clarify your position on honouring the price quoted. Thanks.

Hello Andy, this is a known fault and we are working to rectify this. If you have purchased a ticket for a journey plan, we will honour this ticket. - Bradley

https://twitter.com/Fuzzlette/status/1193799545639112704

I think there's something wrong with your app. Trying to buy a return ticket from DID to PAD 08:21-18:37 and all its giving me is an option to purchase an off peak return ticket for that journey. Those times are definitely not off peak.

Hello. Thanks for pointing this out. There seems to be a problem with the fares universally. I have raised this with our control team. My apologies! - Jake

This recent occurrence is just one out of many. On a regular basis, the restriction data associated with many restriction codes set by GWR are altered to allow travel on trains the company does not intend to be valid in conjunction with tickets that correspond to the relevant restriction code.

This is normally of no real problem; after all under contract and consumer law, tickets remain valid, and in theory TOC staff are all trained to adhere to relevant laws.

Furthermore National Rail Enquiries (NRE) states:

When you book your journey online, any ticket offered in connection with the timetable or itinerary produced by the journey planner will be accepted as a permitted route.

And, helpfully and quite rightly, the Twitter staff have confirmed the tickets "will be honoured".

So, not a problem, right?

Unfortunately no, there is a problem: several GWR staff at stations such as London Paddington do not comply with relevant laws and instead ask passengers to purchase an excess fare in order to travel as per the original contract. Clearly this is not lawful. Just one recent example (out of many) can be found in the following thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/off-peak-ticket-validity-heyford-to-paddington.194346/

My wife was charged a penalty fare recently. She bought a off-peak return from Heyford to Paddington (with a student railcard).

The trains were the 07.41 from Heyford and 16.52 from Paddington (both journeys change at Oxford). The ticket was purchased from the Trainline and she travelled to the itinerary she entered when she booked the ticket. (The inspector was not interested in this.)

Subsequent checks show the same ticket is available via the GWR app and the Network Rail website also gives this off-peak ticket. I do know off peak tickets are not valid on the 16.52 to Oxford (two stops before Heyford).

Can we assume her ticket was fine? And if so, is there anything we can say to the inspector to prove this?

Thanks,

Keith

This is not a new phenomenon but there does appear to be a lot of reported cases recently, so I thought it was worth highlighting the issue again.

 

[Hadders]

GWR need to get a grip here:

Firstly they should make sure the data is correct so the error doesn’t happen in the first place.

Secondly, GWR must ensure their front line staff (barrier staff and anyone involved in checking tickets) is aware of GWR’s legal obligations in respect of ticket acceptance.

We have had far too many examples of GWR staff making up their own rules. We even had a case a few years back of GWR staff calling the police claiming a passenger, who happened to be a forum member, (with a perfectly valid ticket but one they didn’t think should be valid) was carrying a gun.

The majority of GWR staff are excellent but sadly a minority give the company a poor reputation.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Secondly, GWR must ensure their front line staff (barrier staff and anyone involved in checking tickets) is aware of GWR’s legal obligations in respect of ticket acceptance.

I'd be happy if their gateline staff were at least trained on the basics, and told where to find details of ticket validity.

Recent example: According to staff at Paddington, a ticket from Stourbridge Town to Windsor and Eton Central routed via High Wycombe and Birmingham (complete with Maltese Cross) isn't valid from Paddington.

Given Bourne End - High Wycombe closed in 1971, I'd like to know what route they think the customer involved should have taken!

 

[Hadders]

I'd be happy if their gateline staff were at least trained on the basics, and told where to find details of ticket validity.

Recent example: According to staff at Paddington, a ticket from Stourbridge Town to Windsor and Eton Central routed via High Wycombe and Birmingham (complete with Maltese Cross) isn't valid from Paddington.

Given Bourne End - High Wycombe closed in 1971, I'd like to know what route they think the customer involved should have taken!

Blimey! Words fail me. The incompetence is breathtaking.

 

[yorkie]

Also see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/undercharged-for-peak-train.169142/ for a previous thread on this subject from Summer 2018. As you can see from that thread, Mark Hopwood was made aware of the scale of the problems but he is clearly not able to get a grip on how his staff behave.

Long established members may recall the regular battles that occurred at Paddington between GWR gateline staff and @bnm .

The worst behaviour I witnessed at Paddington was about 10 years ago when they falsely claimed someone had a gun. I GWR staff in the Thames Valley area have also been caught denying people their contractual rights to break their journeys. Staff at Slough once wrote on my York to Weymouth ticket that it was no longer valid because - according to them - I should have taken the 2335 (or whatever it was) from Waterloo. However as they wrote it on the back of the ticket, it caused no issues when I did resume my journey.

I can't see anyone from GWR actually resolving this issue; it's a deep rooted cultural issue that goes back many years and - I predict - will continue for years to come.

If it was in any other industry, I would be confident that the relevant staff would be dealt with appropriately and that the culture would be changed. But as it's the rail industry, the opposite is the case: I fully expect the status quo to remain, and for GWR to continue to commit multiple contractual breaches on a daily basis; the number of cases I am aware of is huge, and this can only be the absolute tip of the iceberg.

All we can do is spread the word; we are powerless to actually get the company to act, and there isn't any organisation that has both the power and inclination to impose any sort of sanction that may persuade them to change their ways.

Oh well!

 

[RJ]

If a member of staff makes a mistake with the validity of the ticket, the TOC will generally deem it to be a complex matter. This means it will be dismissed as a freak incident and nothing will be done to rectify the matter.

On the front line, a significant proportion of staff are never taught about the existence or concept of restriction codes. Staff are taught the same simplified version of restrictions that are advertised to the general public. The idea that a ticket from a different station might have a different restriction on it that needs to be checked is very complex and not one everyone is trained on. Even if the railways wanted to fix things like this, it's near on impossible because many staff don't actually know how to check what the restriction on a specific ticket is. Undertaking this type of research, whether that be looking up a code or checking National Rail Enquiries is a specialist skill on the railways. Those who know how to should help their colleagues out.

Briefing staff isn't simple either. The nature of shift working, general purpose relief and high turnover jobs means it's difficult to communicate messages to everyone that needs to receive them. Managers don't have the time to sit down and explain ticket restrictions to all of their staff. Assuming written briefs do reach all relevant staff, there's no guarantee they will be written in a way that is plain and simple for the intended audience to digest. Sometimes retail briefs get put down after a few sentences of reading because there is often reams of technical detail which only makes sense to people who already have an expert knowledge on the subject.

In other words, it's a waste of time to expend the effort of worrying about things like this. It's worth considering whether it's worthwhile to take on a problem that's much bigger than what it seems to be on the surface if you haven't been directly affected by it.

There are ways to force a TOC to take action. They involve either costing the TOC a noticeable sum or money or ruffling the feathers of people that have other things to be dealing with.

 

[yorkie]

If a member of staff makes a mistake with the validity of the ticket, the TOC will generally deem it to be a complex matter. ....

That may be true for a passenger on a walk-up fare without an itinerary.

But honouring the booked train is a simple matter; but when a passenger turns up with an itinerary (or even a reservation for a particular train), platform staff at places like Paddington are telling them their contract will not be honoured and that it is the fault of the retailer.

I would be shocked if I was refused access to a plane or a coach on that basis, but I am not shocked to hear someone has been refused travel on their booked train - even after showing that it is their booked train - at stations like Paddington.

Even if we got all their staff to honour itineraries, without touching the other issues, we would at least have some progress!

 

[Wolfie]

That may be true for a passenger on a walk-up fare without an itinerary.

But honouring the booked train is a simple matter; but when a passenger turns up with an itinerary (or even a reservation for a particular train), platform staff at places like Paddington are telling them their contract will not be honoured and that it is the fault of the retailer.

I would be shocked if I was refused access to a plane or a coach on that basis, but I am not shocked to hear someone has been refused travel on their booked train - even after showing that it is their booked train - at stations like Paddington.

Even if we got all their staff to honour itineraries, without touching the other issues, we would at least have some progress!

There is only one way to deal with such systematic breathtaking incompetence. That is to take legal action against GWR every single time such an incident occurs, ensuring that your MP (mine is Jeremy Corbyn and he LOVES TOCs!) and the media are fully in the loop. If it gets unpleasant and expensive the overpaid useless management might actually get off their overpadded posteriors abd actually earn their wages!
You may gather that l have had enough of the rubbish and the apologists!

 

[v199629]

Does GWR use agency staff at Paddington gateline like SWR do?

 

[yorkie]

Does GWR use agency staff at Paddington gateline like SWR do?

Not that I know of

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Given Bourne End - High Wycombe closed in 1971, I'd like to know what route they think the customer involved should have taken!

There is actually a route, if a slow one.

That would be to get a Chiltern service to South or West Ruislip, a Central Line service to Greenford, GWR down the Greenford branch to West Ealing, Heathrow Connect to Hayes and then GWR again to Slough and then Windsor.

 

[MikeWh]

There is actually a route, if a slow one.

That would be to get a Chiltern service to South or West Ruislip, a Central Line service to Greenford, GWR down the Greenford branch to West Ealing, Heathrow Connect to Hayes and then GWR again to Slough and then Windsor.

Sadly that is invalid. Neither South/West Ruislip nor Greenford are on the list of stations where the maltese cross is valid.

[Pedant mode]Heathrow Connect is now TfL Rail[/Pedant mode]

 

[keefc]

Does GWR use agency staff at Paddington gateline like SWR do?

I was the OP on one of the threads linked...Heyford to Paddington.

So I am on the 18.14 Paddington to Didcot. The return leg off an off-peak ticket I bought last night using the GWR app. The conductor has announced over the tannoy that this is a completely restricted train. But I have a contract of course.

The odd thing is that the O7 restriction does (to my reading) say that off-peak tickets are not valid. But the app sold me one.

And the Trainline app will not let me buy an off peak ticket! So is presumably coded correctly.

I know far more about the intricacies of rail fares than I ever thought i would. What a mess!

 

[keefc]

So I am on the 18.14 Paddington to Didcot. The return leg off an off-peak ticket I bought last night using the GWR app. The conductor has announced over the tannoy that this is a completely restricted train. But I have a contract of course.

Should say I am changing at Didcot for Heyford...

 

[cactustwirly]

I was the OP on one of the threads linked...Heyford to Paddington.

So I am on the 18.14 Paddington to Didcot. The return leg off an off-peak ticket I bought last night using the GWR app. The conductor has announced over the tannoy that this is a completely restricted train. But I have a contract of course.

The odd thing is that the O7 restriction does (to my reading) say that off-peak tickets are not valid. But the app sold me one.

And the Trainline app will not let me buy an off peak ticket! So is presumably coded correctly.

I know far more about the intricacies of rail fares than I ever thought i would. What a mess!

Of course that announcement is incorrect as it ignores the Network area rule.
There are no restrictions on legs wholly in the Network area (ie Paddington to Didcot) if the ticket originates outside the area, such as Leicester for example

 

[4COR]

So I am on the 18.14 Paddington to Didcot. The return leg off an off-peak ticket I bought last night using the GWR app. The conductor has announced over the tannoy that this is a completely restricted train.

It appears that though a lot of GWR off peak tickets are restricted in some way in the evening, but, errors with the GWR booking engine aside, there are lots of off-peaks down the Thames Valley routes that have no evening restrictions that apply to GWR trains from Paddington, even fares that are for journeys wholly inside the Network area!

So, quite wrong!