RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

[Robertj21a]

Reading a statement from WMR they were claiming that they never proposed DOO and have offered a deal which means responsibility for train dispatch remains with the Guard if that is the case what is it within this deal the RMT are unhappy with or are they just flexing their muscles so to speak?

I don't recall ever seeing anything from WMR suggesting that they want to introduce DOO - perhaps I'm confusing it with somewhere else ?

 

[gray1404]

Their ticket arrangements (or lack of) on Strike days is totally disgusting for customers holding WMT Only tickets. I suspect it would be asking for too much for them to arrange ticket acceptance on VT but I am very surprised they have not agreed acceptance from Chiltern between Birmingham and London Marylebone.

Really poor deal for customers trying travel Liverpool/Crewe to Euston with WMT. One has to travel via Birmingham and Northhampton.

 

[Llanigraham]

Their ticket arrangements (or lack of) on Strike days is totally disgusting for customers holding WMT Only tickets. I suspect it would be asking for too much for them to arrange ticket acceptance on VT but I am very surprised they have not agreed acceptance from Chiltern between Birmingham and London Marylebone.

Really poor deal for customers trying travel Liverpool/Crewe to Euston with WMT. One has to travel via Birmingham and Northhampton.

Perhaps Chiltern have refused to accept it?

 

[gazzaa2]

Reading a statement from WMR they were claiming that they never proposed DOO and have offered a deal which means responsibility for train dispatch remains with the Guard if that is the case what is it within this deal the RMT are unhappy with or are they just flexing their muscles so to speak?

A lot of WMR staff must be eager to visit the Christmas markets/go out on the lash the next few Saturdays.

 

[gazzaa2]

Their ticket arrangements (or lack of) on Strike days is totally disgusting for customers holding WMT Only tickets. I suspect it would be asking for too much for them to arrange ticket acceptance on VT but I am very surprised they have not agreed acceptance from Chiltern between Birmingham and London Marylebone.

Really poor deal for customers trying travel Liverpool/Crewe to Euston with WMT. One has to travel via Birmingham and Northhampton.

Virgin Trains are already packed out on weekends. Particularly Saturday mornings into London.

Chiltern as you say could have been ideal, but everyone seems to have had it with WMR. From the company statement though I don't know exactly why they're striking anyway. Not that the staff/trains turned up at the weekend anyway half the time.

 

[Carlisle]

A lot of WMR staff must be eager to visit the Christmas markets/go out on the lash the next few Saturdays.

Exactly, the company reached a broad agreement with the RMT a year & a half ago, so why should you take a unions views seriously that’s simply trying to use passengers travelling over the festive period as pawns to get even more .

 

[nuneatonmark]

It’s quite simple, the Unions will use any excuse such as ‘safety concerns’ re DOO
, until they get offered more money then the ‘safety’ issues magically vanish.

 

[bussnapperwm]

The thing is though that what was said in public can be different to what has been said in private.

 

[Carlisle]

It’s quite simple, the Unions will use any excuse such as ‘safety concerns’ re DOO
, until they get offered more money then the ‘safety’ issues magically vanish.

None of these recent disputes have concerned pay or even driver only trains anymore They’re solely about the RMT trying to preserve a grade that’ can’t easily or quickly be withdrawn in future, without the unions ability to organise another potentially lengthy & damaging strike first, should they so desire

 

[londonmidland]

Even with the very basic service provided tomorrow, I have a feeling it’ll end up in chaos with delays and cancellations still occurring.

Seems to happen nearly every weekend..

 

[diffident]

Even with the very basic service provided tomorrow, I have a feeling it’ll end up in chaos with delays and cancellations still occurring.

Seems to happen nearly every weekend..

Surely they can't (as they have with the emergency timetable) know exactly what services they can and can't run until they have a headcount of who has turned in for duty?? They wouldn't know that until the morning I'd have thought??

 

[gazzaa2]

Even with the very basic service provided tomorrow, I have a feeling it’ll end up in chaos with delays and cancellations still occurring.

Seems to happen nearly every weekend..

Its every day these days

 

[newtownmgr]

At least they've still got a usable service of any form. There will be no Hereford services during the strike periods which means Worcester to Hereford is cut off from the rest of the Midlands (only having GWR services) and Droitwich is effectively removed from the rail network, with no services at all. I wouldn't have minded if there was a Worcs-Kidderminster shuttle to connect the two halves - if only Chiltern or GWR had a spare unit knocking about they could run such a service with!

They might have spare units but as they don’t work over the route they have no route knowledge

 

[Art1983]

Timetable not holding up very well this morning down south a few cancellations which was to be expected but more misery for LNWR passengers

 

[BucksBones]

I don't suppose even LNR management really expected that they'd be able to run that emergency timetable.

 

[virgintrain1]

Do you we know the operational incident on the snow hill lines that is causing additional cancellations is down to?

 

[Merle Haggard]

The VWC Manchester via Crewe services are calling additionally at Tamworth and Lichfield "due to industrial action".
Few LNR Euston - Northampton trains ran so far this morning...

 

[Art1983]

Tweet just gone out from LNWR claiming non striking staff are to blame for today's terrible service, barely anything has left euston so far.

 

[Llanigraham]

Tweet just gone out from LNWR claiming non striking staff are to blame for today's terrible service, barely anything has left euston so far.

That doesn't sound a very sensible way to engender support from those that have turned up to work.

 

[Class172]

They might have spare units but as they don’t work over the route they have no route knowledge

I know, it was a comment made in jest.

 

[GadgetMan]

None of these recent disputes have concerned pay or even driver only trains anymore They’re solely about the RMT trying to preserve a grade that’ can’t easily or quickly be withdrawn in future, without the unions ability to organise another potentially lengthy & damaging strike first, should they so desire

This is all about DOO. You’re missing the bigger the picture. The company are asking to go to the 10 bells procedure. In the short term thats just bonkers. The argument on here about Drivers releasing doors is always about reducing a few seconds from the dwell times. Moving to the 10 bells process will not only cancel out any time saving but will add additional time to station stops increasing overall journey times. This would also mean running less trains as increasing dwell times will lead to less capacity on an already congested line. We’re given 30 secs from stopping to starting at most stations now, the new method would be impossible to do in that time.

In the long run, if Drivers accept closing doors after getting a tip from the Guards now, then the next step will be closing doors from a tip from station staff. DOO lovers on here will make the point that it makes no difference to the Driver who gives them the tip, they accepted the payrise for pressing the door close button so should just get on with it, the courts will also come to the same conclusion.

First it was because there wouldn’t be any intermediate GOP panels on the new trains, then its cos the intermediate panels will only have a local door switch and buzzer button. The trains are years away from coming in, if they are happy to keep Guards and let them keep responsibility for despatch then why not just fit full door control at intermediate panels. Might cost more, but they’ll save money by avoiding industrial action so it should balance out in the long run.

The company have also bundled in other ‘improvements’ to working practices with the offer of keeping safety critical Guards on trains. The first X number of sick days unpaid, first X mins of OT unpaid, more flexibility of Spare movements, and theres a whole lot more.

 

[The Planner]

Its pretty much recognised that 30 seconds just doesnt work now, especially if the guard has to get out, check and get back on before door release. The 2021 planning rules have been changed already in some locations to mandate 1 minute dwells. Interesting times ahead.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm still confused.....

Has WMR said they want DOO ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Its pretty much recognised that 30 seconds just doesnt work now, especially if the guard has to get out, check and get back on before door release. The 2021 planning rules have been changed already in some locations to mandate 1 minute dwells. Interesting times ahead.

Is that universal or TOC Specific ? Would this be because of the RSSB recommendation or for another reason ? Cheers in advance.

 

[mde]

Tweet just gone out from LNWR claiming non striking staff are to blame for today's terrible service, barely anything has left euston so far.

For anyone not on Twitter, the offending tweet says:

London Northwestern Railway @LNRailway

⚠️ Due to several non-striking staff refusing to cross picket lines, trains are being cancelled at short notice

⚠️If you can, please consider travelling later and check journey status here: http://socsi.in/giNuu

We're extremely sorry for the extra disruption today

https://twitter.com/LNRailway/status/1195634471556583424

 

[diffident]

Due to several non-striking staff refusing to cross picket lines...

That's the whole point of a picket line!!

 

[Carlisle]

. The company are asking to go to the 10 bells procedure. In the short term thats just bonkers.
.

Yes it is, they’d have been better off sticking with the driver open & close plans they originally wanted & SWR are proposing, as they were likley deemed best practice for the future after careful consideration of all known facts by those within the industry dealing in such matters. 10 bells makes almost no sense on a modern railway,.
As you’ve explained in detail in your post, even the TOCs initial capitulation hasn’t actually ended this dispute anyway , it’s just encouraged the RMT to push for even more .
Fundamental changes that at least offer the management the right to manage appear long overdue.

 

[185]

Reading a statement from WMR they were claiming that they never proposed DOO and have offered a deal which means responsibility for train dispatch remains with the Guard if that is the case what is it within this deal the RMT are unhappy with or are they just flexing their muscles so to speak?

Remaining impartial, my understanding of the statements from both sides is that:

The company offered:
- Something that it thinks is not a version DOO/DCO
And the union responded:
- Both proposals are just de-facto versions of DOO/DCO

Hence, rather large grey area between the two viewpoints it seems.

 

[The Planner]

Is that universal or TOC Specific ? Would this be because of the RSSB recommendation or for another reason ? Cheers in advance.

No idea, but that is one of the reason dwell times are no longer adequate, along with more punters getting on and off etc... the days of 30 second dwells will soon be consigned to history on a lot of routes I suspect as new stock just cannot do it.

 

[Starmill]

Has anyone attempted to travel?