ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Bassman]

I read continuing perspectives of where we might be in early 2020 - from glass half empty or half full viewpoints.
I had a journey south on a refurb last week, and in all I felt this is progress, and a train that befits an intercity service- smooth ride, and good catering, hot food.

The concept of upgrading intercity travel in Scotland, is an important step in the right direction and re-investment in the lines Aberdeen to Inverness and HML is moving forwards. Electrification of these routes is also coming up the agenda and consideration of a longer term strategy of bi-modes. While we share frustration at the implementation of this part of the project, it is slowly coming into being, and we are in a far better place than we were than three years ago.

 

[Bassman]

Referring back to three years ago and the start of this thread November 2016.

A close friend of mine came across a set of documents lying on the table in a staff bothy regarding in-depth details of the refurbishment plan for the Scotrail HST fleet.
I can't find any released PDFs online nor on this forum, so I've started this thread dedicated to the Scotrail HST arrival and refurbishment.

Here's the details within the documents which I've taken the time to type up, and I've have attached the images from them which contain renders, seating plans, and statistics charts;

Update:
Details now confirmed regarding in-depth specifications for ScotRail's HSTs, confirming all of the above.

Three years later.. a continuing matter of argument about how well this project has been implemented. But it is coming into fruition and the reasons for delay are always because of the increased complexity of such change. I generally believe it is not a matter of incompetence but one of always misunderstanding the nature of change.

 

[Paul Kerr]

No 7 are I think and five is the maximum that have been in service. They often do not complete their diagrams.

The data don't lie and ignoring it as it doesn't support your argument doesn't change them. There is no fleet. No one expects three sets to appear and operate reliably by Christmas.

The last one delivered was HA19 which would mean that 8 have been delivered. I'm not disagreeing with you that availability is poor right now but this is a big step change for the ops and maintenance crews. Given that multiple rakes were in the works before ScotRail stopped taking delivery of the sets in September there are probably more coming north imminently.

Maybe I am a glass-half-full kind of guy but I think given time to settle these trains will still be a big step up from what preceded them.

 

[Northhighland]

I think the frustration is around the time it is taking Scotrail to get the reliability figures up to the required standard.

not met anyone yet who really has a strong criticism of a journey in a refurb HST. They are excellent.

just need to get them running. The teams provided very reliable 158/170’s so I am sure they can do the same with HST. Seems they are missing some technical support though.

 

[InOban]

 

[GrimShady]

It's telling tbh that they let St Rollox go to the dogs when this issue exits. Hollyrood should have stepped in a year ago which would have been a win for all concerned.

 

[380101]

It's telling tbh that they let St Rollox go to the dogs when this issue exits. Hollyrood should have stepped in a year ago which would have been a win for all concerned.

What would the Glasgow works have brought to the table? Probably nothing in terms of the HST refurb programme as WabTec don't seem keen to allow any other company to get their hands on the sliding door design they are using. Also the standard of work coming out of KBR/Gemini Rail in the last few years has been abismal - 156 refurb job is a prime example of the "quality" achieved, so having the works still available wouldn't have made matters much better.

 

[Highland37]

I think the frustration is around the time it is taking Scotrail to get the reliability figures up to the required standard.

not met anyone yet who really has a strong criticism of a journey in a refurb HST. They are excellent.

just need to get them running. The teams provided very reliable 158/170’s so I am sure they can do the same with HST. Seems they are missing some technical support though.

I have met plenty. Cyclists in particular. The provision is awful and the design incompetent.

Away from train enthusiasts, the service is heavily criticised.

Of course Wabtec's failure to deliver might provide an excellent opportunity to redesign the bike spaces but will it be taken.

 

[Highland37]

View attachment 70670

Thanks. It would be interesting to look tomorrow to see if all of those diagrams actually are successful.

 

[GrimShady]

Maybe I am a glass-half-full kind of guy but I think given time to settle these trains will still be a big step up from what preceded them.

No Paul your exactly spot on. They'll be a massive improvement when they eventually get there.

While I quite like Turbostars on the E&G, they were not suitable for anything over 1hour.

I for one am becoming sick and tired of TOCs telling me what I should expect on IC journeys or passing off commuter stock as suitable. I'm the customer and I'll decide what's comfortable.

 

[GrimShady]

What would the Glasgow works have brought to the table? Probably nothing in terms of the HST refurb programme as WabTec don't seem keen to allow any other company to get their hands on the sliding door design they are using. Also the standard of work coming out of KBR/Gemini Rail in the last few years has been abismal - 156 refurb job is a prime example of the "quality" achieved, so having the works still available wouldn't have made matters much better.

They brought in Kilmarnock didn't they? They could have been forced as they're way behind, depending on the penalties in the contract for late delivery.

Agreed though that last few products weren't high quality.

 

[380101]

They brought in Kilmarnock didn't they? They could have been forced as their way behind, depending on the penalties in the contract for late delivery.

Agreed though that last few products weren't high quality.

Yeah, they moved some of the work to WabTec Kilmarnock, not an outside company. Brodie Engineering across the tracks did an exam on one HST set as it was due it and there was nowhere else that could do it in the timeframe required - Springburn previously carried out these exams (nothing to do with the refurb programme, just routine exams required due to mileage/time).

 

[Highland37]

The last one delivered was HA19 which would mean that 8 have been delivered. I'm not disagreeing with you that availability is poor right now but this is a big step change for the ops and maintenance crews. Given that multiple rakes were in the works before ScotRail stopped taking delivery of the sets in September there are probably more coming north imminently.

Maybe I am a glass-half-full kind of guy but I think given time to settle these trains will still be a big step up from what preceded them.

How long to settle in? Is that period for set or the whole programme?

Written from a packed 170 on way to Kingussie. No sign of an HST anywhere here.

 

[GrimShady]

Yeah, they moved some of the work to WabTec Kilmarnock, not an outside company. Brodie Engineering across the tracks did an exam on one HST set as it was due it and there was nowhere else that could do it in the timeframe required - Springburn previously carried out these exams (nothing to do with the refurb programme, just routine exams required due to mileage/time).

Ah right. I was under the impression Brodie's owned the place.

 

[Journeyman]

No Paul your exactly spot on. They'll be a massive improvement when they eventually get there.

While I quite like Turbostars on the E&G, they were not suitable for anything over 1hour.

I for one am becoming sick and tired of TOCs telling me what I should expect on IC journeys or passing off commuter stock as suitable. I'm the customer and I'll decide what's comfortable.

But they are passing off commuter stock, for far longer than they were meant to, that they now have a serious shortage of because the whole project has failed.

Jam tomorrow is all very well, but this project is never going to deliver.

 

[Journeyman]

The last one delivered was HA19 which would mean that 8 have been delivered. I'm not disagreeing with you that availability is poor right now but this is a big step change for the ops and maintenance crews. Given that multiple rakes were in the works before ScotRail stopped taking delivery of the sets in September there are probably more coming north imminently.

Maybe I am a glass-half-full kind of guy but I think given time to settle these trains will still be a big step up from what preceded them.

How many more excuses are you going to make? They should have had 26 sets by this time last year. However many they have, the useless things never appear because they keep breaking down. How many years do we have to keep listening to empty promises before it's acceptable? One? Three? Five?

You keep saying we have a rosy future with these patched-up rustbuckets. When, exactly?

 

[GrimShady]

But they are passing off commuter stock, for far longer than they were meant to, that they now have a serious shortage of because the whole project has failed.

Jam tomorrow is all very well, but this project is never going to deliver.

Granted but the late introduction of IET on GWR didn't help matters which was the start of this epic tale of bad project management. ScotRail unfortunately built a house of cascading cards that fell flat on its face.

What's required is a boot the size of RMS Titanic up ScotRails derrière. This should be a hot topic in Holyrood.

 

[380101]

Ah right. I was under the impression Brodie's owned the place.

WabTec are on the site of the former Hunslet Barclay works right next to the station and Brodies are across the track in what used to be a BR depot and sidings for maintenance teams.

 

[GrimShady]

Shhh they must be listening

 

[Northhighland]

I have met plenty. Cyclists in particular. The provision is awful and the design incompetent.

Away from train enthusiasts, the service is heavily criticised.

Of course Wabtec's failure to deliver might provide an excellent opportunity to redesign the bike spaces but will it be taken.

don’t hold back eh? I work in an office of about 100 + people who regularly commute from Inverness to Edinburgh and Glasgow. There won’t be many days we don’t have people on the HML.

the view amongst them is overwhelmingly positive on the HST. They even are happy with the classic sets.

if Scotrail was able to run the service with a mix of classic and refurb this issue would go away for the majority of customers.

what annoys is the seat reservation issue and standing to Perth. Stop that and most people would be fine. Paying £70 for cc a return it isn’t much to expect a seat.

Most people don’t cycle so you don’t represent a majority. However there are ways of fixing the cycle issue and I do agree it could be better designed.

however that in itself isn’t a reason to rubbish the whole project.

 

[Journeyman]

however that in itself isn’t a reason to rubbish the whole project.

There are plenty of reasons to rubbish the whole project.

 

[BRX]

However many they have, the useless things never appear because they keep breaking down.

To what extent is this actually true? Do we have any numbers on failures in service?

I appreciate that a big part of the problem is that they don't make it into service in the first place, but the actual reasons for this seem complex/unclear. What ultimately matters is how reliable they are once problems that are related to the introduction process (teething problems, staff training or shortages, maintenance learning curve, slow delivery) have been ironed out. Of course people are understandably frustrated and angry that this is taking far too long, but this is a separate issue from the question of whether the trains *can* eventually become reliable.

 

[GrimShady]

Speaking of cycles, there's no reason they can't be accommodated in the PCs and accessed internally. ScotRail have simply chosen not to do this. Maybe this is part of the plan for the fifth coach if and when that ever happens.

 

[Journeyman]

To what extent is this actually true? Do we have any numbers on failures in service?

I appreciate that a big part of the problem is that they don't make it into service in the first place, but the actual reasons for this seem complex/unclear. What ultimately matters is how reliable they are once problems that are related to the introduction process (teething problems, staff training or shortages, maintenance learning curve, slow delivery) have been ironed out. Of course people are understandably frustrated and angry that this is taking far too long, but this is a separate issue from the question of whether the trains *can* eventually become reliable.

That's the thing - I don't believe they can. They come from the most unreliable fleet, and the power cars are fitted with less reliable motors than the rest. They've been used on intensive stop-start cycles for years, far more so than other fleets, and they're going to be used on stop-start cycles again. They're 40 years old, which means reliability is going to drop over time, even with careful maintenance. But as I've asked other people, how long are we supposed to wait?

 

[Journeyman]

Speaking of cycles, there's no reason they can't be accommodated in the PCs and accessed internally. ScotRail have simply chosen not to do this. Maybe this is part of the plan for the fifth coach if and when that ever happens.

The power car firefighting equipment uses gas, and can discharge automatically at any time. There's no way you can let the public in there.

 

[hexagon789]

Speaking of cycles, there's no reason they can't be accommodated in the PCs and accessed internally. ScotRail have simply chosen not to do this. Maybe this is part of the plan for the fifth coach if and when that ever happens.

Fire extinguisher discharge

It could activate in the non keyed-in power car at anytime really, which is why they don't want to use it.

 

[Highland37]

don’t hold back eh? I work in an office of about 100 + people who regularly commute from Inverness to Edinburgh and Glasgow. There won’t be many days we don’t have people on the HML.

the view amongst them is overwhelmingly positive on the HST. They even are happy with the classic sets.

if Scotrail was able to run the service with a mix of classic and refurb this issue would go away for the majority of customers.

what annoys is the seat reservation issue and standing to Perth. Stop that and most people would be fine. Paying £70 for cc a return it isn’t much to expect a seat.

Most people don’t cycle so you don’t represent a majority. However there are ways of fixing the cycle issue and I do agree it could be better designed.

however that in itself isn’t a reason to rubbish the whole project.

I am not saying anything particularly difficult other than for those whose affection for a machine means they are very defensive about criticism.

You or I don't represent anyone. This is a discussion about what was promised, what has been delivered and what might happen.

Whether I represent a majority or not is irrelevant. People with a disability are not a majority. People with prams are not a majority. People with bikes are not a majority. Etc.

The point is that the project has not, to date, been anything like what was promised and there is no data that suggests it will change. Or can you point to hard evidence, not opinion or forecasts, as to when things are going to change.

The project is a disaster to date. It needs to change. I note you are in favour of continuing on the path we are on. Shame, as it is affecting people's lives in a bad way. (Do you want to discuss this with my other half who travels with a pram?)

(I have seen two refurbished sets today but wasn't on either of them).

 

[Altnabreac]

Just to remind everyone of the situation regarding 385s a year ago:
https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-150...ew-trains-on-edinburgh-glasgow-line-1-4810270

There were the brake issues, the windscreen issues, late delivery, fitters on every train and people calling for the whole contract to be cancelled:

As someone who just wants a timely train service between falkirk and Edinburgh park (along with occasional football related trip to glasgow) with the chance to get a seat on maybe 80% of journeys I have to say I reckon scotrail priorities are wrong from passenger perspective. Why 385? Could they not have chosen a older proven design and got some of these built?? Scotrail want things like 5 mins off an eg journey and it is little benefit. Who noticed 5 mins? Old coaches with locks would do for heaven sake.

12 months on we have the entire 385 fleet delivered and working well day in day out. Now it may well be that the issues with HSTs are more ingrained and harder to resolve but we can't judge the eventual success of the programme until there are more sets in service and the reliability modifications are complete.

The customer experience of the HSTs is good when available so it will all come down to set availability and reliability in 12 months time.

 

[GrimShady]

Fire extinguisher discharge

It could activate in the non keyed-in power car at anytime really, which is why they don't want to use it.

Yeah I've heard that before although it seems to be rubbish as other TOCs are using it. Total overreaction as the engine room door should be gas tight.

 

[BRX]

The power car firefighting equipment uses gas, and can discharge automatically at any time. There's no way you can let the public in there.

When I travelled on one of the GWR short-formed sets last month, I noticed that there seemed to be both the fire equipment, and some cycle racks, in the power cars. Do those cycle racks (which I don't think were in use when I traveled) predate the installation of the fire equipment?