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New Chester to Leeds service

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Deerfold

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Yes, which is why I mentioned the number of stops between Leeds and Todmorden (#438). I expect pathing constraints would make it difficult for the Chester train to serve Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden only, with the Manchester train on the opposite half-hour serving the others.

As well as reducing the service these stations have had for years (Mytholmroyd is already seeing service reductions next month).
 
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Greybeard33

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Worth remembering that this service is also the Warrington-West Yorkshire service. That was a significant passenger flow when TPE operated the Liverpool - Scarborough trains via Warrington Central. That traffic was more or less abandoned when TPE was diverted onto Chat Moss. The Chester-Leeds service is in part an attempt to re-make the connection. That's one reason which we're overlooking for why it crosses Manchester
There are 2tph from Warrington Central to Piccadilly plus the TfW from Bank Quay to Piccadilly. It is a cross platform change at Piccadilly on to the fast 2tph TPE service to Huddersfield and Leeds. Even from the Northern Chester service, a change at Victoria on to the following TPE Liverpool to Scarborough train will get you to Leeds 20 minutes earlier than remaining on the Northern train through Halifax and Bradford!
 

John C

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From my observations been a regular user of Calder valley services the Leeds-Chester through service has really only become a big issue with reliability since the introduction of the class 195’s, prior to this in general the route was fairly reliable for time keeping and had nowhere near the current level of full/part cancellations (i.e terminating at Warrington).
 

Ianno87

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There are 2tph from Warrington Central to Piccadilly plus the TfW from Bank Quay to Piccadilly. It is a cross platform change at Piccadilly on to the fast 2tph TPE service to Huddersfield and Leeds. Even from the Northern Chester service, a change at Victoria on to the following TPE Liverpool to Scarborough train will get you to Leeds 20 minutes earlier than remaining on the Northern train through Halifax and Bradford!

And is there *that* much Warrington-West Yorkshire demand?
 

Old Yard Dog

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Leeds isn't the centre of the universe. I travel regularly from west Cheshire to Bradford and the new service is very useful.
 

The Prisoner

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Hebden Bridge has four times as many services per hour call as Runcorn East. The latter has no significant means to grow its usage numbers given a stagnation in service. That would suggest typically as many people get on a service at Runcorn East as Hebden Bridge, so why call at one and not the other? My point is that the service in this part of the world (Cheshire) is dreadful - a second service per hour Chester - Manchester is welcome, but it would make more sense that TfW add a second service to serve Frodsham and Runcorn East in particular than this curious combination of express and stopper.
 

Bovverboy

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According to the latest available ORR statistics (i.e. those for 2017/18) Hebden Bridge has well over four times the patronage of Runcorn East; naturally enough, in the middle of the day, it has four times as many trains calling. At peak, however, it only gets one additional service (0701 Hebden Bridge to Leeds) whereas the service at Runcorn East is almost doubled, due to:
1) the TfW service being (briefly) enhanced;
2) some of the NT Chester/Ellesmere Port services calling.
So I would say that, relative to patronage, Runcorn East has a noticeably better train service than Hebden Bridge.

P.S. A great pity, I think, that ORR figures are always twelve months behind the times, lots can happen in that sort of timescale.
 

Bovverboy

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AIUI, Leeds - Chester is interworked at Leeds with the Man Vic service on the opposite half-hour. If only the Chester service goes over to 195s then the two must be separated and this will cost a unit at a time when Northern is short of stock. The same applies to the York - Blackpool, due to receive 195s in December, as that interworks with the York - Leeds stopper.

According to 'Realtime Trains', it's not the intention that Leeds - Chester/Ellesmere Port should be split from the Leeds - Manchester Victoria (via Halifax) shorts (as had been predicted, from the December timetable change). Either that was never the intention, or plans have changed.

As to York - Blackpool, it does appear that the service is indeed going to be separated from the York - Leeds (via Garforth & Cross Gates) shorts, but it does not mean there is going to be an extra diagram, rather York - Blackpool is going to become tighter than it currently is, and York - Leeds slacker. I don't see the point of this, tbh, unless it's the intention that the York - Leeds shorts be interworked with something else, and there's no sign of that happening for the time being.
 

Bovverboy

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I suspect Northern are promoting through services through Man vic to avoid terminating trains hogging platforms.
Personal view is having them as stopping services not much good to longer distance travellers.
Extending the Leeds to Man vic express to Chester or Southport makes more sense than the current stoppers.
K

What are you referring to as 'Leeds to Man vic express'? Only the TPE services do Leeds to Manchester noticeably faster than the Northern, and they're already scheduled to continue to destinations beyond Victoria.
 

Bovverboy

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I do not believe Victoria has capacity to terminate the western portion of the service if it were split from the Leeds part. There is nowhere the stock could spend the 50 minute layover. And an additional diagram would be needed, when Northern is already short of stock and traincrew.

I'm not saying that I think splitting the service at Victoria would be a good thing, but feel compelled to challenge the notion that there would be a 50 minute layover at Victoria, ex-Chester. There are services the Chester could interwork with, without requiring an additional diagram.

The extended service has increased conflicts at Ordsall Lane Junction. With the TPE services, there are now 3tphpd between Victoria and the Chat Moss line, which have to cross the paths of the 4tphpd between Piccadilly and the Bolton line, over the flat junction. This has worsened the delays through the Castlefield corridor and through Victoria.

There are also 2tphpd between Piccadilly and the Chat Moss line (one or two extra at peak), but westbound they don't conflict with anything eastbound.

Perhaps it is time for all the stakeholders to accept that this service extension was "a bridge too far" over the current Central Manchester infrastructure, and to allow Northern to bin the Victoria - Chester service altogether in order to improve the reliability of the Calder Valley services?

One thing I do think is that, for a TOC to be permitted to introduce a new service, it should be required to prove it has the staff and rolling stock to maintain it.
 

Bovverboy

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The service was billed partly as a replacement for the TPE service between Leeds and Warrington Central. It therefore seems odd that it runs "all stations" between Leeds and Todmorden, and is due to have a Low Moor stop added, yet it runs non-stop (mostly) between Warrington and Chester. The other Leeds - Man Vic via Bradford service is the faster of the two.

The Victoria terminators generally skip Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd, but a few do add Littleborough, and one even adds Smithy Bridge. So the difference between the two services is tiny.
 

Llama

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One thing I do think is that, for a TOC to be permitted to introduce a new service, it should be required to prove it has the staff and rolling stock to maintain it.
To be fair, for the Chester service Northern did have both, until the 195s were diagrammed on it.
 

northernchris

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As to York - Blackpool, it does appear that the service is indeed going to be separated from the York - Leeds (via Garforth & Cross Gates) shorts, but it does not mean there is going to be an extra diagram, rather York - Blackpool is going to become tighter than it currently is, and York - Leeds slacker. I don't see the point of this, tbh, unless it's the intention that the York - Leeds shorts be interworked with something else, and there's no sign of that happening for the time being.

I assume the eventual plan is for York - Blackpool to become fully 195 operated, with the Leeds - York becoming sprinter operated
 

Bovverboy

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As to York - Blackpool, it does appear that the service is indeed going to be separated from the York - Leeds (via Garforth & Cross Gates) shorts, but it does not mean there is going to be an extra diagram, rather York - Blackpool is going to become tighter than it currently is, and York - Leeds slacker. I don't see the point of this, tbh, unless it's the intention that the York - Leeds shorts be interworked with something else, and there's no sign of that happening for the time being.

I assume the eventual plan is for York - Blackpool to become fully 195 operated, with the Leeds - York becoming sprinter operated

But is it worth making a mess of a timetable just to avoid using 195s on York - Leeds terminators? It's only a matter of 2 x 195.
 

northernchris

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But is it worth making a mess of a timetable just to avoid using 195s on York - Leeds terminators? It's only a matter of 2 x 195.

Looking at the timetable it's probably more to increase layover at York. As it stands the Blackpool's will have 23 minutes layover but by keeping them in with the Leeds stoppers would give just 8 minutes from the Blackpool arrival to the Leeds departing
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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But is it worth making a mess of a timetable just to avoid using 195s on York - Leeds terminators? It's only a matter of 2 x 195.

Leeds to York section could well have knock-on effects for TPE and others, if a Class 195 on that section developed the same type of door fault that recently occurred at Cark causing a delay of 30 minutes on a Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Airport service.
 

Bovverboy

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But is it worth making a mess of a timetable just to avoid using 195s on York - Leeds terminators? It's only a matter of 2 x 195.

Looking at the timetable it's probably more to increase layover at York. As it stands the Blackpool's will have 23 minutes layover but by keeping them in with the Leeds stoppers would give just 8 minutes from the Blackpool arrival to the Leeds departing

The theoretical increase in the layover time at York is not a consequence of the York - Blackpool and York - Leeds being split, it's a consequence of the Blackpool service being significantly accelerated. End to end times are down by as much as seventeen minutes, with only two stops knocked out. That represents quite a tightening.
 

Bovverboy

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I should add, the York - Leeds times have, of course, been recast, but they didn't need to be, the fact that they have been is a consequence of the routes being split, not a cause of it.
 

Bovverboy

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Yes, which is why I mentioned the number of stops between Leeds and Todmorden (#438). I expect pathing constraints would make it difficult for the Chester train to serve Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden only, with the Manchester train on the opposite half-hour serving the others.

As well as reducing the service these stations have had for years (Mytholmroyd is already seeing service reductions next month).

How I read geoffk's post, I think he was considering the possibility of the Manchester Victoria terminators serving Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd, rather than the Chester/Ellesmere Port trains. So the total number of trains calling at those stations would not be altered.
 

Glenn1969

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I think somebody has previously been proposing those stations having their service level increased which has always been a HADRAG aspiration

The original franchise proposal was 3 or even 4 tph Bradford-Manchester which would probably have allowed that to happen. But there is no sign in the intermediate future of that being delivered
 

northernchris

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The theoretical increase in the layover time at York is not a consequence of the York - Blackpool and York - Leeds being split, it's a consequence of the Blackpool service being significantly accelerated. End to end times are down by as much as seventeen minutes, with only two stops knocked out. That represents quite a tightening.

I hadn't realised the time savings were so big! Although it does seem the Leeds - York section is where the greatest time saving occurs as well as the section between Halifax and Hebden Bridge where stops are removed

The TPE services are being recast, so the stoppers are having to change to fit around these. The Leeds - York typically leaves at xx:24 now, following out the xx:21 Scarborough, however from the timetable change the Scarborough moves to xx:27 with the Blackpool - York leaving at xx:30
 
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