South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Envoy]

If Caerphilly-Queen St falls within the 20 minutes threshold, the normal UK standard for a reasonable amount of time to be standing, then a strategy of moving to more ‘commuter’ stock with proportionally more standing space makes some sense.

Peak trains on the Valleys are clearly busy, but how many passengers are actually standing for more than 20 minutes? I don’t recall Valleys trains appearing regularly in the lists of ‘Britain’s most crowded trains’ - if anything would have thought that TfW trains into Manchester and Birmingham are more over crowded for longer in the peaks than Valleys ones. But going off topic...

I think that most people are expecting that when the new trains arrive that capacity will allow everybody to commute without standing. If the plan is to only have enough capacity for the present flows and to assume that people will be standing, then I can hardly see this attracting extra commuters who at present use their cars. What is needed is the capacity to shift the present flows - without standing plus allow for more passengers that can be attracted off the roads. To do this, they surely need to be SEATED?

It looks like many of the Transport for Wales services are rammed at commuting times. Some people cannot even board trains as they are so full. The Welsh Government dragged their feet in not deciding soon enough who was going to run the trains & hence, get the orders in for new stock. They knew damn well what the situation was when Arriva were running things. Clearly, if the 769’s come into service and then 2 or 3 years later, the Stadler Flirts arrive with less capacity, it will be a PR disaster and the people will want the 769’s back - despite them being old.

This press article recently appeared on Media Wales concerning the overcrowding. Note the comments section that follows!
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/gallery/images-packed-carriages-fed-up-17250812

The last thing people want after a tiring day at work is a long, hot, cramped journey home on a packed commuter train.

Sadly, this appears to be an all too frequent reality for the thousands of people across Wales who rely on train services provided by Transport for Wales (TfW), the franchise that took over from the now-defunct Arriva Trains Wales in October, 2018.

 

[NotATrainspott]

When it comes to getting commuters out of their cars there will inevitably be carrots and sticks. Giving them a nice seat for the duration of their journey would be a nice carrot, but it isn't going to be enough. Whether people like it or not, the main thrust of stopping people driving into Cardiff is going to happen through measures to make life harder for motorists like parking charges, congestion charges and private motoring capacity restrictions (e.g. converting lanes to bus lanes).

Having to stand on trains doesn't necessarily mean it's overcrowded. Overcrowding is when the number of passengers wanting to travel on a train is well in excess of its normal carrying capacity. On more metro-oriented trains this normal carrying capacity will take standing passengers into account in a way that the regional-style trains typically used around Cardiff previously haven't. For instance, standing in the aisles is fine if it the aisles are wide enough for people to walk past each other so that they can still get on and off at their stops. If a passenger is standing on a Pacer today they're probably in the aisles where it'll be an absolute pain getting to the doors, so dwell times multiply and capacity drops even more as trains are delayed.

 

[Chester1]

When it comes to getting commuters out of their cars there will inevitably be carrots and sticks. Giving them a nice seat for the duration of their journey would be a nice carrot, but it isn't going to be enough. Whether people like it or not, the main thrust of stopping people driving into Cardiff is going to happen through measures to make life harder for motorists like parking charges, congestion charges and private motoring capacity restrictions (e.g. converting lanes to bus lanes).

Having to stand on trains doesn't necessarily mean it's overcrowded. Overcrowding is when the number of passengers wanting to travel on a train is well in excess of its normal carrying capacity. On more metro-oriented trains this normal carrying capacity will take standing passengers into account in a way that the regional-style trains typically used around Cardiff previously haven't. For instance, standing in the aisles is fine if it the aisles are wide enough for people to walk past each other so that they can still get on and off at their stops. If a passenger is standing on a Pacer today they're probably in the aisles where it'll be an absolute pain getting to the doors, so dwell times multiply and capacity drops even more as trains are delayed.

I think Metrolink has a reasonable balance. There are 40 seats on a single unit and that is enough outside of busiest times for all passengers to have a seat. At the busiest times the large standing areas and wide doors mean the service copes with demand. I am a bit skeptical about long distance light rail but with the right choice of layout and seats it could work. I think something like Edinburgh trams high back and cushioned seats would be a good match. Metrolink style seats would be terrible for an hour journey.

 

[Envoy]

I think Metrolink has a reasonable balance. There are 40 seats on a single unit and that is enough outside of busiest times for all passengers to have a seat. At the busiest times the large standing areas and wide doors mean the service copes with demand. I am a bit skeptical about long distance light rail but with the right choice of layout and seats it could work. I think something like Edinburgh trams high back and cushioned seats would be a good match. Metrolink style seats would be terrible for an hour journey.

The fact is that many of the journeys in the SE Wales Metro area are an hour or so. Going from Merthyr or Rhymney down to Cardiff is no quick local trip. It takes around the same time as an Inter City Express going from Cardiff to Swindon and it would clearly be unacceptable to stand on such a journey. Going from the heads of the valleys down to the coast at Penarth or Barry is even longer.

 

[Envoy]

A public consultation is currently under way for Cardiff East Parkway at St.Mellons. Further details at www.cardiffhendrelakes.com
You can see plans & discuss at :>
Meet the team event: Marshfield
Monday 25 November 2019

• 3pm – 7pm
• Castleton Baptist Church, St Mellons Road, Marshfield, CF3 2TX

 

[Cardiff123]

The fact is that many of the journeys in the SE Wales Metro area are an hour or so. Going from Merthyr or Rhymney down to Cardiff is no quick local trip. It takes around the same time as an Inter City Express going from Cardiff to Swindon and it would clearly be unacceptable to stand on such a journey. Going from the heads of the valleys down to the coast at Penarth or Barry is even longer.

Have you seen the artists impressions of the Stadler City Links that are destined for the Valleys? They have been described by KA as 'train-trams' rather than 'tram-trains', and will have 2+2 high backed seating throughout. So people boarding at the heads of the valleys will obviously get a comfortable seat.

It would be ideal if the 769s had 2+2 seating fitted, they've been sat in depots doing nothing long enough for that to have happened. Commuters and passengers in SE Wales and the Valleys are not used to 3+2 seating, so I suspect there will be a lot of empty middle seats on the 3 seat rows.

Keolis Amey and TfW need to be given a chance. They are not Arriva mark 2. They've already shown willingness to change their rolling stock plans if needed, bringing in the Mk 2 coaches for example. If it's obvious that they haven't got enough Stadler units for the Valleys to relieve overcrowding, I'm sure that follow on orders will be made.

 

[Chester1]

The fact is that many of the journeys in the SE Wales Metro area are an hour or so. Going from Merthyr or Rhymney down to Cardiff is no quick local trip. It takes around the same time as an Inter City Express going from Cardiff to Swindon and it would clearly be unacceptable to stand on such a journey. Going from the heads of the valleys down to the coast at Penarth or Barry is even longer.

Will the seats all be taken far out? The number of seats will still be increasing but less than the increase in standing space. The normal rule for commuter routes is that people should not have to stand for longer than 20 minutes. At the same seating density as Metrolink units the 40m sets would have 54 seats. Maybe 70 seats would be more suitable for the Valleys.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Have you seen the artists impressions of the Stadler City Links that are destined for the Valleys? They have been described by KA as 'train-trams' rather than 'tram-trains', and will have 2+2 high backed seating throughout. So people boarding at the heads of the valleys will obviously get a comfortable seat.

It would be ideal if the 769s had 2+2 seating fitted, they've been sat in depots doing nothing long enough for that to have happened. Commuters and passengers in SE Wales and the Valleys are not used to 3+2 seating, so I suspect there will be a lot of empty middle seats on the 3 seat rows.

Keolis Amey and TfW need to be given a chance. They are not Arriva mark 2. They've already shown willingness to change their rolling stock plans if needed, bringing in the Mk 2 coaches for example. If it's obvious that they haven't got enough Stadler units for the Valleys to relieve overcrowding, I'm sure that follow on orders will be made.

All of the d.m.u.s on the valley lines had 3+2 seating until the the Sprinters arrived. The proverbial hit the fan when the Pacers arrived with their, nominally, 3+2 seating. They were subsequently converted to 2+2 because three people could not fit on the seats properly. The old d.m.u.s were far more comfortable than the newer stuff with plenty of leg room. It seems to have been overlooked that people, on average, have grown larger in the last fifty years or so. Look around you at the teenagers who are bigger than their parents then look at the size the men who served in both world wars. They would be dwarfed by today's youngsters but the trains have not, and cannot be increased in size. Perversely the trains have decreased in length, which was the result of Thatcher's government policy.

 

[Dai Corner]

All of the d.m.u.s on the valley lines had 3+2 seating until the the Sprinters arrived. The proverbial hit the fan when the Pacers arrived with their, nominally, 3+2 seating. They were subsequently converted to 2+2 because three people could not fit on the seats properly. The old d.m.u.s were far more comfortable than the newer stuff with plenty of leg room. It seems to have been overlooked that people, on average, have grown larger in the last fifty years or so. Look around you at the teenagers who are bigger than their parents then look at the size the men who served in both world wars. They would be dwarfed by today's youngsters but the trains have not, and cannot be increased in size. Perversely the trains have decreased in length, which was the result of Thatcher's government policy.

I thought it was the Blair Government which specified the 'no-growth' 2003 franchise and the resources available to it some time after Mrs Thatcher left office?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I thought it was the Blair Government which specified the 'no-growth' 2003 franchise and the resources available to it some time after Mrs Thatcher left office?

Correct, and the way Labour AMs continually blame "the Tories" for the state of the Welsh rail network is a bit pathetic.

 

[Cardiff123]

I thought it was the Blair Government which specified the 'no-growth' 2003 franchise and the resources available to it some time after Mrs Thatcher left office?

But it was the Thatcher govt of the 1980s that forced BR to replace first generation 3 car DMUs with 2 car Sprinters and Pacers.

 

[Dai Corner]

But it was the Thatcher govt of the 1980s that forced BR to replace first generation 3 car DMUs with 2 car Sprinters and Pacers.

True, but subsequent Governments had the opportunity to take a more optimistic view of the railways. I think the Wales & Borders and Northern franchises were the only ones this century to be let on a no growth basis.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Correct, and the way Labour AMs continually blame "the Tories" for the state of the Welsh rail network is a bit pathetic.

Correct, and the way Labour AMs continually blame "the Tories" for the state of the Welsh rail network is a bit pathetic.

It was the Thatcher government that forced B.R. into a two for three rolling stock replacement. Blair might have been blamed for some things but that wasn't one of them. Just to assure you that I am not electioneering. I have never voted for either of the parties they headed. No amount of spin or downright dishonesty will alter the past.

 

[Cardiff123]

TfW have officially opened the Treforest South Wales Metro Infrastructure Hub. It's gone up pretty quickly, but the building doesn't look very 'permanent' to me

https://news.tfwrail.wales/news/south-wales-metro-infrastructure-hub-opens

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

TfW have officially opened the Treforest South Wales Metro Infrastructure Hub. It's gone up pretty quickly, but the building doesn't look very 'permanent' to me

https://news.tfwrail.wales/news/south-wales-metro-infrastructure-hub-opens

It's not intended to be permanent, is it? It's a temporary base for the construction work and will be replaced by a new depot when the rolloing stock starts arriving.

 

[anamyd]

TfW have officially opened the Treforest South Wales Metro Infrastructure Hub. It's gone up pretty quickly, but the building doesn't look very 'permanent' to me

https://news.tfwrail.wales/news/south-wales-metro-infrastructure-hub-opens

I've quoted the article for you

TfW said:
South Wales Metro Infrastructure Hub Opens

Transport for Wales reaches a key milestone today with the opening of the South Wales Metro Infrastructure Hub.

As the new hub from which TfW will deliver the next phase of the transformation of the valley railway lines for the South Wales Metro, the facility at Treforest includes distribution facilities and management offices.

This phase of The South Wales Metro project has been part funded by the European Regional Development Fund through Welsh Government, the Cardiff Capital Region, the UK Department for Transport.

The Metro Infrastructure Hub will play a fundamental role in the delivery and future maintenance of the Metro. Primarily, for the first five years the hub will be used as a material distribution centre and after the first phase of transformation will evolve into a maintenance depot until the end of the current rail service contract .

The project management offices will be home to over 200 employees, creating a centralised location for Metro work over the next few years.

Ken Skates AM, Minister for Economy and Transport said: “It’s a privilege to open the Treforest Metro Infrastructure Hub, as this signifies a huge step forward for Transport for Wales and delivery of the next phase of the South Wales Metro. The South Wales Metro is going to transform the way people travel in South Wales, providing social, business and economic opportunities.

“Transport for Wales are investing three quarters of a billion pounds into the next phase of the South Wales Metro and this new facility will be at the heart of the progress being made over the next few years, and into the future.”

James Price, Transport for Wales CEO said: “Through unifying rail, bus and active travel routes, the South Wales Metro will significantly improve connectivity throughout South Wales and provide access to jobs, leisure and other opportunities for the people of Wales.

“Our investment will see over 170km of track electrified and the upgrading of track and signalling along with the creation and improvement of station facilities.

“Revolutionising transport for local communities, this phase of the South Wales Metro will bring quicker journeys, greater capacity, more frequent and reliable services with the offer with more affordable travel.”

Kevin Thomas, Chief Executive Officer of Transport for Wales Rail Services added: “The opening of the Treforest Metro Infrastructure Hub is another important milestone on our journey to transform transport for the people of Wales and create a network that people can be proud of.

“Over the next few years, we’ll embark on a transformation programme across South Wales. This is a team effort; it’s exciting to be progressing and delivering on our plans.”

(Click / tap thumbnails to view images)


Metro Infrastructure Hub group photo


Ken Skates and team with Metro cake


Ken Skates is shown Valley Lines plans


Ken Skates is shown Metro plans


Ken Skates and team with Metro Infrastructure Hub plaque

 

[PaulHarding150]

Our investment will see over 170km of track electrified and the upgrading of track and signalling along with the creation and improvement of station facilities.

170km is a touch over 100 miles. That presumably includes double counting double track?

 

[Envoy]

I see that the former railway land at what was St. Athan Railway station has been flogged off for new houses - which have now been built. I would have thought that it would have been sensible to have kept this land with a view to re-building a station at St. Athan. (The site was walkable from the bulk of the village but should also have included a free P&R). So, we now have a situation that in the event that a new station is built to serve St. Athan, that land would have to be purchased. I just can’t understand why the Vale of Glamorgan Council - along with the planners at the Welsh Government/ TfW allowed this to happen? For people in St. Athan wishing to catch a train to say Cardiff, they now have to either drive in the wrong direction to Llantwit Major or drive eastward on a slow road with humps through Rhoose village to that station. The probability is that they won’t bother to do this and will instead simply drive all the way to Cardiff - thus adding to the massive amount of traffic already on this route.

Here is the location on Google Maps:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3991024,-3.4148661,1228m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Here is a photo of the site of the former St. Athan Railway Station along with the new houses:>

 

[Cardiff123]

I see that the former railway land at what was St. Athan Railway station has been flogged off for new houses - which have now been built. I would have thought that it would have been sensible to have kept this land with a view to re-building a station at St. Athan. (The site was walkable from the bulk of the village but should also have included a free P&R). So, we now have a situation that in the event that a new station is built to serve St. Athan, that land would have to be purchased. I just can’t understand why the Vale of Glamorgan Council - along with the planners at the Welsh Government/ TfW allowed this to happen? For people in St. Athan wishing to catch a train to say Cardiff, they now have to either drive in the wrong direction to Llantwit Major or drive eastward on a slow road with humps through Rhoose village to that station. The probability is that they won’t bother to do this and will instead simply drive all the way to Cardiff - thus adding to the massive amount of traffic already on this route.

Here is the location on Google Maps:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3991024,-3.4148661,1228m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Here is a photo of the site of the former St. Athan Railway Station along with the new houses:>

View attachment 72520

If the houses have already been built and are now being lived in, I'd say that land was sold at least 5 years ago, before TfW even existed

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a likely transfer date for the Core Valley Lines asset transfer? Presumably this was delayed because of the UK election.

 

[Envoy]

If the houses have already been built and are now being lived in, I'd say that land was sold at least 5 years ago, before TfW even existed

Even if it was 5 years ago, the desire to improve the rail service was well known and therefore the potential to re-build St. Athan station and help reduce traffic on the roads. Therefore, the Vale of Glamorgan Council along with the Welsh Government should have blocked the sale of this land by Network Rail.

I now wonder what the situation is at Caerleon - a place crying out to have the railway station re-built as it is very difficult to get in and out of by road. St. Cadoc’s Hospital recently closed and the land would be ideal for car parking for the locals from outlying housing to reach the re-built station. The former station site is also within walking distance of the Roman remains but at the moment these are very difficult to reach from say Cardiff. Now, I am not suggesting that another stop be made by the long distance trains on The Marches route. What is clearly needed is an all stops service from maybe Cardiff to Abergavenny - where a bay platform could easily be inserted. Thus, the long distance trains could go non stop from Newport to Abergavenny where passengers for the intermediate stops could transfer for Hereford & beyond. So, if the former hospital land has not been secured for a new station/parking, then it would be another example of incompetence by the local planners and those in charge of The Metro project - unless they have a better idea for Caerleon?

Map of Caerleon area:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6095855,-2.9557936,2402m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[stj]

Has the proposed Parkway at Llanwern been scrapped?

 

[Dr Day]

I’m not sure Llanwern was ever proposed as Parkway - more a local-station-with-parking. This will presumably be linked to nearby development taking off on the steelworks site, although the mooted test track and special events stabling I believe are separate. Cardiff Parkway AFAIK is still progressing with private funding and WG support, as are proposals for car park expansion at Severn Tunnel Junction.

 

[Envoy]

What they could do with at STJ is a direct link to the station car park from the M4 by the old toll booths.

 

[K.o.R]

So what is the current state of play regarding the Metro? What is being electrified, and what are the plans for the bits that aren't? (96 pages is just a bit too much to look back through)

 

[Cardiff123]

So what is the current state of play regarding the Metro? What is being electrified, and what are the plans for the bits that aren't? (96 pages is just a bit too much to look back through)

All the info you need is on this website:

https://tfw.wales/whats-happening-south-east-wales

 

[WelshBluebird]

All the info you need is on this website:

https://tfw.wales/whats-happening-south-east-wales

Of course that is already incorrect and out of date. Sigh.
I get TfW were dealt a rough hand, but I really wish they would just be honest and come out and say that they are sorry but they are unable to meet their commitments and give us a more realistic timeline.

 

[Cardiff123]

Of course that is already incorrect and out of date. Sigh.
I get TfW were dealt a rough hand, but I really wish they would just be honest and come out and say that they are sorry but they are unable to meet their commitments and give us a more realistic timeline.

Apart from the line about installing TVMs at every South Wales Metro area station by April last year, all the rest of the info is correct.

 

[Parallel]

Having just had a look at the website, the below is interesting:

Invest in Cardiff Central station from April 2025, Abergavenny station from April 2023, Chepstow from April 2025 and Merthyr Tydfil from April 2020.

Having been to Chepstow station last year, 5 years seems like a long time to wait for investment, especially as it's not a major station and looked to be very tired last time I was there. Also, the adjacent wasteland doesn't really help.

Anyone know the works planned for Merthyr?

 

[Envoy]

Having just had a look at the website, the below is interesting:
Having been to Chepstow station last year, 5 years seems like a long time to wait for investment, especially as it's not a major station and looked to be very tired last time I was there. Also, the adjacent wasteland doesn't really help.

Yes, it is ridiculous that nothing is being done at Chepstow for 5 years - especially in view of the massive traffic jams that the town is now having to endure. They should nab that wasteland now in order to make a station car parking area - which might attract more people to switch to rail. The good news is that the TfW Class 170’s are now coming into service on the stoppers between Cheltenham & Cardiff/ Maesteg. The bad news is that anyone wishing to change trains at Severn Tunnel Junction to/from the Chepstow/Lydney route does not have a good match with services going through the Severn Tunnel.