A branded bus on the wrong route is better than no bus at all. There are many reasons as to why the wrong bus type is on a route.
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First Greater Glasgow
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Yeah never said it was a bad thing although if it keeps happening a lot it defeats the purpose of having branding at all. All services should get a fair spread of different buses tbh. Only fair to customers that nobody should be stuck with just the worst all the time
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Not really. Certain routes just don’t make the money to have a “fair spread” and if you do that, you aren’t then investing in the routes that are the real moneyspinners.
Put it another way.... You wouldn’t expect Glasgow to have fewer new buses so that First could be nice and give some to Lowestoft or Yeovil or Haverfordwest, would you?
It's fairly common knowledge that one of the main reasons for people to stop using buses is the condition of them. It's a fairly sensible way around leaving routes with just crap constantly. Maybe these routes wouldn't be so bad if customers got a bit of quality now and then. As much as First are a private company it's still a public service they're running so customer wants and desires are far more important than they show sometimes.
It wouldn't be taking away from anything here either. Buses still need to be brought in one way or another and the routes that do well will barely change. Use the 38 and 75 as good examples. They didn't have the best of buses before the new ones yet they're constantly mobbed and have been for years.
I wasn't meaning taking buses out of one operation and into another too btw. Thought I'd clarify that up incase it wasn't clear. Was meaning just around routes within depots under First here.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
No, I know you weren’t advocating taking buses out of Glasgow but the principle remains the same. There are major profitable services that will get investment and more profitable OpCos. Not every service or OpCo can financially justify new or nearly new fleet.
That’s the same with any bus company. The trouble with First is they have had years of underinvestment and that’s exacerbated now. Hence why what little money they do have is being concentrated on those areas where they get the greatest returns.
Put bluntly, the older fleet has to go somewhere. That there are vehicles >15 yrs old or vehicles that haven’t had refurbs isn’t great (and in the latter case, it’s something that shouldn’t have occurred). However, it happens everywhere. You focus the money on the most lucrative routes and then cascade the vehicles as appropriate. Stagecoach do it - Ayr to Ardrossan gets regular fleet upgrades but you don’t find that much going to Stranraer.
The fact that the 38 and 75 (and arguably Glasgow as a whole) had older vehicles is a reflection on how First had little money to spend except in London.
Yeah it's the underinvestment I'm getting at. The difference between First's best vehicles and worst is frightening and that's a big part of the problem. They could easily have had more out of a lot of routes here but they've not and most of it is their own fault and part of this does come from the shoddy buses being on the same services constantly. People need a reason to use the service and First not giving them one won't make them use it. Unrealistic scheduling in timetables, dreadful customer service and social media, unnecessarily high pricing and failure to consistently invest in new fleet all add up unfortunately too so the downward turn in customers is all on them really. It's not easy running as much as they do in terms of investment but they knew what they were in for and it's sadly took a LEZ announcement to get the finger out in Glasgow
I've never ever thought route branding was ever a good idea for buses, and if you are going to do it, do it for a very small selection of routes and the secret that is lost in Glasgow is not to brand the entire PVR of a route so that you don't end up with branded buses on the "wrong" route.
The biggest flaw is then on a Sunday you have like can be witnessed when I drive past Caledonia Depot on the motorway is loads of 38, X3, X85/X87 and 75 branded buses lying around in the depot doing nothing when they could be out earning a crust and at least giving the less glamourous routes nice buses on a Sunday. Also on one Sunday a few weeks ago on the motorway in quick sucession I saw 2x 75 branded buses on the M80, one on the X3 and the other on an X85- routes that have their own branding!!!!
The current great idea of having both the 41 and 75 having yellow fronts is just typical. There is a whole spectrum of colours that they have used but "sod it we will just confuse people instead" is the usual attitude.
Yeah I agree with this so much. The thing is as well is that the unbranded newer buses look good as they are. I'd be happy for them just to bring in the next batch next year and not brand anything. It's an extra cost at the end of the day and passengers who aren't enthusiasts won't really care as long as their bus is on time and not in a bad state and that's the majority. I've thought some branding looks good but it's not a necessity on any route with maybe the exception of the airport buses
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Ok - why do you think that bus companies brand buses? In fact, why do businesses brand anything? Because it works and generates more recognition and increased patronage.
However, where firms fail is where it’s not executed properly. That can be where it’s just a vinyl slapped on a bus (the “so what” issue). Once upon a time, bus companies could simply put new fleet on a route and it would drive patronage but that doesn’t happen nowadays.
I’m no marketing person but there’s a reason why Cadbury spend a fortune on branding rather than everything being in a plain white wrapper.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
In all fairness even when a branded bus is off route it's still effective. As it's still marketing the route it's branded for.
Branded buses when done correctly are effectively a mobile billboard. If it really was pointless then i doubt most major operators would still be doing it today!
Branded buses when done correctly are effectively a mobile billboard. If it really was pointless then i doubt most major operators would still be doing it today!
The new buses with branding have been the 18,34/34A,38,65,75,241,242,254
There's obviously been more done on buses that aren't brand new but tbh other than the X1 stuff done last week and the 61 that tbh was also already a very profitable service what else has really needed the branding?
18, 38 and 75 have always been exceptionally strong for passengers, 34/34A have dropped frequency since and the 65 was always busy but the new buses have helped.
I've not used the 241, 242 or 254 but it's the same with them. I feel like they'd have been fine just with new buses. I feel like in other industries branding is far more important than it is on buses. Far better online advertisements of services and even local papers etc and better social media use could have been just as effective for less cost in terms of bringing in passengers. Loyalty deals on tickets wouldn't go a miss either. Even cheaper all days and weekly tickets would probably bring in more too because even in terms of the city zone trains aren't cheap to use so if the buses were around 20/25% cheaper it could have a big impact.
Would like to see some new routes with a bit of creativity too because we've really not had much since Simplicity. The network has been fairly stale for nearly 7 years now so a bit of a refresh that's properly advertised and well explained could really work out well
There's obviously been more done on buses that aren't brand new but tbh other than the X1 stuff done last week and the 61 that tbh was also already a very profitable service what else has really needed the branding?
18, 38 and 75 have always been exceptionally strong for passengers, 34/34A have dropped frequency since and the 65 was always busy but the new buses have helped.
I've not used the 241, 242 or 254 but it's the same with them. I feel like they'd have been fine just with new buses. I feel like in other industries branding is far more important than it is on buses. Far better online advertisements of services and even local papers etc and better social media use could have been just as effective for less cost in terms of bringing in passengers. Loyalty deals on tickets wouldn't go a miss either. Even cheaper all days and weekly tickets would probably bring in more too because even in terms of the city zone trains aren't cheap to use so if the buses were around 20/25% cheaper it could have a big impact.
Would like to see some new routes with a bit of creativity too because we've really not had much since Simplicity. The network has been fairly stale for nearly 7 years now so a bit of a refresh that's properly advertised and well explained could really work out well
Whilst that may be true generally I don't think it is something that could be said to apply to Glasgow, if it did then several of the independents over the last few years would never have gotten established. For a case in point I don't think Avondales continued existence is down to the quality of the vehicles they operate.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Exactly. There’s a reason why firms do it and that’s because it’s proven to work but not in isolation. It’s about getting the product right - is it reliable? Will it turn up and arrive on time? Does it go where and when people want to travel? Many of those are also difficult for operators - roadworks can decimate reliability and whilst I bet that the city centre is still a strong draw, I bet places like Hamilton and Clydebank are no longer as busy than they were reflecting the decline of the traditional high street.
You seem to question why a firm would invest in an already profitable route. Well, simply if you invest time and money to get a 5% increase in trade, well 5% of a big service is much more lucrative than 5% on a marginal one. It’s about money.
As regards fares, you already have loyalty schemes. That’s why monthly tickets are discounted - to increase loyalty (against any other operator) and to improve cash flow.
Fare structures are difficult things and it’s not an exact science. If you halved your fares, would you double patronage? Unlikely, and your costs would invariably go up so hence why firms have always had to tread a line. Unfortunately, concessionary pass reimbursements have complicated that further.
As for innovation.... it shouldn’t be discounted and Stagecoach have been very good at that. Some initiatives work, some don’t. The problem with First is that given their position, experimenting is something that they are less inclined to do. They’ve wasted money on some daft ideas (FTR, Greyhound) in the past but now are risk averse. They could perhaps do more but they haven’t got the money to gamble.
I’d also add that in many cases, travel patterns are long established. That also limits firms ambitions but, as Stagecoach have proved, it can be done but they’ve had enough failures as well as successes. It’s not an exact science.
Yeah I stay in an area Avondale operate in and it's a miracle they're still going. I was meaning more in terms of size of a company though. First are massive compared to Avondale and I've read and heard loads of comments relating to why people have stopped using First and bus quality is constantly mentioned.
First's quality considering their size is shocking tbh outside of the new buses. Granted it's a lot of the public's fault that's just part of operating here and I've even found Mcgills seating to be so much better in terms of condition
In terms of what most people who use buses earn the cost of monthlys etc is hardly discounted. First's problem is that they don't try to fix things with failing services quick enough. It's taken public backlash for the X1 to get branding and refurbed deckers for example. If First showed they cared about customers and kept prices down a bit more hence the 20% I mentioned they could easily make that back up. We live in times where income from most people is very tight and especially in a city like Glasgow where there's more poverty now than ever and that needs to be considered.
Just an example here. City zone 10 week is still working out at £115 and £11.50 a week doesn't sound a lot but it is when incomes are low and the cost of living is going up faster than wages. Singles could be kept the same with everything else coming down and it'll bring in more customers on most routes. Some people will always prefer speed over cost but in Glasgow now I reckon it would be a small minority like that. If the bus is significantly cheaper than anything else then that won't be turned down.
The other problem with the tickets is that there's not many people who will have the cash available at once for a longer ticket to get a better deal. Even if the 4 weekly was a full month it would work out better because as much as there's people who do get paid every 4 weeks there's also still so many who get paid on set days each month meaning that the train becomes more attractive over that just as it covers a full month. 10 week has the same problem. Would need to be a full 3 month ticket to have real benefit to most people who would use it
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cnjb8
Established Member
Branding works for TrentBarton, Nottingham City Transport, Reading Buses, NatEx West Midlands etc... who are all award-winning companies.
But I do agree with the yellow branding for 41 and 75 being silly.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
To go through your comments...
Have you any evidence to back this up or is it just your opinion?
Again, have you any evidence to back this up that if they cut fares by 20% that they would be able to more that recoup that?
In Bristol, they have been able to push up patronage and revisions to the fare system, as well as effective route branding, has been a part of that. However, they did have the benefit of many services having been single decked. A programme of converting routes to decker operation has meant that the growth has been accommodated for little additional cost, especially as some services have had headways widened.
With many services in Glasgow already being deckers, it's just not so easy to accommodate growth.
To put this in context....what job do you do?
Whilst what you say was true 2/3 years ago, wage inflation is in excess of the cost of living especially in Glasgow https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news...wages-grow-more-than-anywhere-else-in-the-uk/ Perhaps your job/sector is an outlier but in general, wages are higher in Glasgow than much of Scotland and increasing faster
Think you're very much mistaken there. I struggle to think of an example where the train service hasn't been reintroduced or improved and it not have a significant impact on bus service patronage.
OK....let's check this out
A weekly ticket costs £17.00... a saving of 26% on a day ticket (at £4.60 - think it's unlikely that many people are travelling across the breadth of the network each day)
A 4 week ticket costs £53.00... a saving of 22% on a 4*weekly tickets
A 10 week ticket costs £115.00....a saving of 13% on 2.5*4 week tickets
Therefore, they are definitely rewarding loyalty to passengers.
I'm not certain exactly how you are proposing to cut fares by your 20%. Are you saying just singles? Blanket cut on everything?
Also, is there really an issue with a monthly ticket being a calendar month rather than a four week period. In terms of working days per month (as that's the main market for monthly passengers), you're looking at 20 days per month vs 21 or 22. It's a 5% difference. If people are making decisions on taking the train vs. the bus, I can assure you that it's much more to do with speed AND generally the train is more expensive anyway.
I know you're a bus enthusiast (or a First Glasgow enthusiast) but most people choose the train not on economic but on speed grounds.
Have you any evidence to back this up or is it just your opinion?
Again, have you any evidence to back this up that if they cut fares by 20% that they would be able to more that recoup that?
In Bristol, they have been able to push up patronage and revisions to the fare system, as well as effective route branding, has been a part of that. However, they did have the benefit of many services having been single decked. A programme of converting routes to decker operation has meant that the growth has been accommodated for little additional cost, especially as some services have had headways widened.
With many services in Glasgow already being deckers, it's just not so easy to accommodate growth.
To put this in context....what job do you do?
Whilst what you say was true 2/3 years ago, wage inflation is in excess of the cost of living especially in Glasgow https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news...wages-grow-more-than-anywhere-else-in-the-uk/ Perhaps your job/sector is an outlier but in general, wages are higher in Glasgow than much of Scotland and increasing faster
Think you're very much mistaken there. I struggle to think of an example where the train service hasn't been reintroduced or improved and it not have a significant impact on bus service patronage.
OK....let's check this out
A weekly ticket costs £17.00... a saving of 26% on a day ticket (at £4.60 - think it's unlikely that many people are travelling across the breadth of the network each day)
A 4 week ticket costs £53.00... a saving of 22% on a 4*weekly tickets
A 10 week ticket costs £115.00....a saving of 13% on 2.5*4 week tickets
Therefore, they are definitely rewarding loyalty to passengers.
I'm not certain exactly how you are proposing to cut fares by your 20%. Are you saying just singles? Blanket cut on everything?
Also, is there really an issue with a monthly ticket being a calendar month rather than a four week period. In terms of working days per month (as that's the main market for monthly passengers), you're looking at 20 days per month vs 21 or 22. It's a 5% difference. If people are making decisions on taking the train vs. the bus, I can assure you that it's much more to do with speed AND generally the train is more expensive anyway.
I know you're a bus enthusiast (or a First Glasgow enthusiast) but most people choose the train not on economic but on speed grounds.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Absolutely. Not really certain why they've elected to duplicate a colour....
However, branding is known to work, which is why people do it. Whether it be
It doesn't work in isolation - Arriva had a habit in their early days of branding umpteen routes across the country but slapping on route details counts for very little. It's much more complex and it's called the marketing mix for a very good reason.
- Product
- Price
- Promotion
- Place
For buses, the product has to be a bus that is warm and welcoming, arrives on time, runs to time. These are, or should be, givens but it often doesn't happen. Sometimes the fault of the operator, sometimes out of their control (traffic, bad parking, roadworks) and no matter the brilliance of a promo push, it won't cover up an inherently poor product.
It also has to have a market or place - people who actually want to travel. You could have the best buses, best marketing, but if it doesn't provide something that people want to buy, you're essentially trying to sell the best engineered, best marketed typewriters!!
Then the issue of promotion. This is where branding comes in and it has to be executed for long enough and consistently enough for people to take it on board. This is perhaps where many First initiatives have foundered....don't get me wrong, stuff like Greyhound or FTR was always fundamentally flawed. This is about getting brands and pushing them consistently so people know what they are going to get. Ultimately, get it wrong (e.g. Transforming Travel) and it acts in reverse and becomes a byword for failure.
Then price. Now people often get price and value mixed up. Quite frankly, people will often spend more quite cheerfully if they perceive value for money. It's when you pay over the odds for a lousy product that people get hacked off. Most bus passengers actually believe they get value for money - about two thirds in First Glasgow's case. Most people probably don't mind the £17 a week if they're getting a decent service - a reasonably clean, modern bus that appears on time. If you're getting a 15 year old B7RLE with threadbare seats and no heating that's ten minutes late every day - you won't feel you're getting value for money. However, if you have a programme of mid life refurbs then people probably will be happier, especially if you add in a few relatively low cost add ons like USB charging and wifi.
Get the product right, in the right market, and then branding can really come into its own. That's why TrentBarton were so far ahead of the industry in the early 1990s; they twigged that they had to sell something and it needed promoting, not merely providing it to a market who have options.
JumpinTrainz
Established Member
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It’s odd they’ve duplicated the colour of such a busy route like the 75 with that of the 41. I understand that there are only so many colours they can use and it’s almost inevitable that it will happen, however there are still colours that First haven’t used that I’ve seen on buses down South. There’s the light pink/tan colour, orange, the more rory orange used on the 254 which I think would be ideal for ‘the one’ service as it’s very striking. There’s also grey, lilac etc. That’s not to say First won’t be using these on future routes coming up. Look at the 2 that’s not a shade I’d have ever thought of!
On a separate note it’s interesting to see almost no E200MMCs on the 2. All the buses I saw yesterday were E300s and I even saw the branded one. Interesting as E200MMCs were always very prominent on this route along with the pink branded 68 plates but I haven’t even saw them either.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
So what have you got at the moment...contrast that to First Bristol who also have a few
- 41 & 75 light yellow
- 254 egg yolk = FB 1 & 2
- 9/9A & 242 hot pink
- 38 mint = FB 5
- 18 & 241 red = FB 90
- 77 mid blue
- 2 mid green = FB24 (but just vinyls not the fronts)
- 65 cerise = FB 70 & 71
- 34 turquoise
- X1 gold
- 240 burgundy
- 61 & 240 wedgwood blue = FB 75 & 76 (1 bus done)
I thought it would have made more sense to work their way through colours and then if they absolutely had to then duplicate but they ruined that idea by giving the 18 and 241 the same colour early on although they go nowhere near each other tbh so I suppose it's okay.
I've not seen one of the pink E200MMCs on a 2 for around a week now. The older E200MMCs have been spread around too. Seen one on a 6 on Sunday. Think it's a good thing though to see all services getting a fair shot of vehicles as I've said before.
JumpinTrainz
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I don’t think it matters a great deal if buses are branded the same colour if they are not going to intercept at any time, for example if the 1 was the same colour as the 254 that doesn’t matter a great deal as they operate from different parts of the city and will not come into contact/clash with each other during their normal service. The 75 and 41 I believe marginally miss each other but they are still services which operate throughout the City Centre so in my opinion it doesn’t work too well. When I see yellow I think 75 given that their branding scheme was well publicised given it was the first route to receive these new buses. I saw a 75 branded E400MMC on the 41 on Saturday evening and I’ve noticed these buses have been used pretty widespread as of late. This is the difficulty with branding so many routes. It’s inevitable that buses will stray and questionably defeat the purpose of having it in the first place.
I like the route branding btw it’s just difficult with Glasgow being such a big operation. They must be careful with their colour coding.
Yeah I'm in the same boat. As long as there's zero crossovers between routes with the same colours it's fine
Realistic_Spy
Member
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I could only guess what routes are being branded, If I were first, I would maybe colour some of the debranded buses, the white is a bit plain...
Btw, the 2 looks nice, shame the E200MMCs moved on, I saw one of them on the 5 today
Btw, the 2 looks nice, shame the E200MMCs moved on, I saw one of them on the 5 today
Jackthebusdude
Member
The "plain white" livery isn't bad tbh, it is nice to colour up the buses like they have to major city routes e.g 61
Jordan Adam
Established Member
The issue with doing that is that they then end up looking like branded buses. The whole idea of the plain white front end is to put more emphasis on the route branded vehicles.
JumpinTrainz
Established Member
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This.
At first I was a bit miffed about the plain livery but I definitely get it now. It also cuts costs when relivering buses. Most budget airliners have caught on to the whole euro white thing too. Less paint = less spend. Plus I think it looks really smart when the buses are all done. My only issue is the front panels on the Enviro stock just doesn’t look as good as it does on the Wright buses.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
The E300s would look better if the light clusters and centre panel were painted lilac/blue/green (depending on opco). Other than that i think the livery sits on them really well.
If you look at Olympia it's not uncommon to see vehicles with the magenta stripe missing or the wrong shade of lilac as the lower half of the livery is fairly complex, the whole idea of the "new" livery was to have as many panels as possible just 1 colour, so saving costs and helping with overall vehicle presentation.
In all fairness there's still equally as much paint, it's just less complex.
I think the plainer livery definitely helps with applying branding as well as cost. Would be so much more difficult to find colours that fit well with it if say we had a Strathclyde Red livery or any stronger colour. Not always been a fan of such a plain livery but I do get the smart reasoning behind it and it leaves a lot of options open for branding in the future.
To answer previous posts ..
- Branded vehicles can and will end up on any route unfortunately. We cannot stop this happening at all as vehicles need to come off for services/mots and other general work and any other vehicle that is available will used in its place regardless of colour.
- Branding vehicles the same colour was an decision that was given the go ahead as long as the vehicles do not cross paths.
- The new livery was implemented to make it easier for body repairs as most of the panels are now 1 colour depending on what panel it is.
- Another few routes are earmarked for route branding but I don't know when this will be carried out. I can't and won't answer what routes it is just now as they might not go ahead.