The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

[AlterEgo]

Abolishing the unelected House of Lords is now undemocratic?

I think I've heard everything now.

Where did I say it was undemocratic? I said it was an attempt at constitutional vandalism.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Can I have some of the salary Seamus Milne takes home please?

he should, personally, :

• apologise very clearly and openly for his own behaviour, views and comments,
• admit he was wrong to support and champion terrorist organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah
• admit going to a memorial for Palestinian terrorist murders was wrong and caused offense ( and that he lied about attending in the first place)
• apologsze for calling these people his friends,
• apologise for appearing on stage with these people,
• apologise for inviting them to Parliament
• admit that his handling of the problems of AS within the labour party have not been good enough, firm enough or quick enough
• commit to putting that right by bringing in a complete zero tolerance regime AND saying he will enforce it regardless of the rank of the person involved with immediate suspension followed by exclusion.
• he should apologise for letting down his jewish supporters and commit to winning back their trust

He can chuck in some mealy mouthed nonsense about being on a journey and educating himself and listening to stakeholders and colleagues if it makes him feel better but he needs to be blunt in saying he was wrong and will change.

Thankyou for posting this - I don't see any antisemitism in there; he may have associated and perhaps supported factions that oppose the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli state, but I don't see any antisemitic nor anti-Zionist actions; not that anti-Zionism is necessarily antisemitic.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It doesn't matter what's in the manifesto.

That's fine we'll just work with your thoughts.

Corbyn and his inner circle are absolutely committed ideologues who know the principle of taking small steps to power. The fact our constitution has been trodden on so damagingly already in the last several years - beginning with Clegg and Cameron's attempt to abolish the Lords, not to mention the Brexit process - makes me think Corbyn is a dangerous choice.

You leap from an attack on Corbyn's inner circle to a Tory plot to revise, note not abolish, the Lords. The plan was to make it democratic, with elections and other such nonsense. At least I no longer have to tolerate people governing me who gained that privilege through birth.

The Brexit process has been well tested in court - are you happy with BJ's extended, politically driven proroguing of parliament? It was nothing to do with Brexit until it was prevented, then it was all about preventing Brexit.

Boris is just as bad, but in a different way.

I would contend that Boris is far worse with proposals to limit the right of individuals to challenge government behaviour in the courts, taking away the legal checks and balances. That, to me, is edging even closer to a dictatorship or a totalitarian state.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Where did I say it was undemocratic? I said it was an attempt at constitutional vandalism.

Must have missed that, as constitutional vandalism doesn't show up when I search this thread.

 

[AlterEgo]

Must have missed that, as constitutional vandalism doesn't show up when I search this thread.

Bad faith post. I clearly said the constitution had been trampled upon, which is the same thing. I don’t have to repeat the idiom exactly.

The point is the country’s constitution has undergone massive damage in the past decade. Boris’ attempted prorogation of Parliament was borderline abusive of the process. Corbyn would be much more dangerous in this situation of continual damage and is at least as inclined to use this damage to further his aims as Boris is. Corbyn is an undiluted ideologue and a weak man surrounded by dangerous ones.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Bad faith post. I clearly said the constitution had been trampled upon, which is the same thing. I don’t have to repeat the idiom exactly.

The point is the country’s constitution has undergone massive damage in the past decade. Boris’ attempted prorogation of Parliament was borderline abusive of the process. Corbyn would be much more dangerous in this situation of continual damage and is at least as inclined to use this damage to further his aims as Boris is. Corbyn is an undiluted ideologue and a weak man surrounded by dangerous ones.

What exactly is this damage and continual damage? Are you referring to outside influences and social media manipulation?

 

[AlterEgo]

What exactly is this damage and continual damage? Are you referring to outside influences and social media manipulation?

No, I’m talking about the continual trampling of the constitution. Brexit and its process are an easy example to think of; for a start Johnson unlawfully advised the monarch and brought her into the political and populist sphere in a way we haven’t seen for centuries. Parliament is sovereign yet has forgotten its authority comes from its electors and will not implement the people’s choice. We are in a time where the ends justify the means.

Corbyn did not damage the constitution (although he promises a legally binding referendum, a legal impossibility really, as parliament must approve any Brexit and cannot bind itself to make a future decision!).

The Tories take most of the blame for this damage along with the Lib Dems.

Imagine the Tories have vandalised a car, tampered with its brakes and fixed its steering. I don’t want Johnson driving that car. But I don’t trust Corbyn behind the wheel either. He’s the purest of ideologues and should be - and will be - rejected at the election.

The Corbynistas are completely blind to the problem. I will not vote for Labour in its current guise. Find your votes elsewhere; you will find it difficult to build a majority. I will continue to enjoy the spectacle of utter political ineptitude across all parties.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can you imagine you will be able to have free access on Corbynet without some websites being blocked to "protect" citizens?

My point is that nationalising Openreach would have zero impact on state censorship in the UK, because we already have it.

But no, I don't think a nationalised Openreach would result in what's happened in China. I think we'd remain free to say Xi Jinping looks like Winny the Pooh.

 

[DarloRich]

Thankyou for posting this - I don't see any antisemitism in there; he may have associated and perhaps supported factions that oppose the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli state, but I don't see any antisemitic nor anti-Zionist actions; not that anti-Zionism is necessarily antisemitic.

And, with respect, that is the crux of the problem. The Corbyn fan club never see any antisemitism and don't believe there is an issue. The rest of us can see there is.

 

[DerekC]

And, with respect, that is the crux of the problem. The Corbyn fan club never see any antisemitism and don't believe there is an issue. The rest of us can see there is.

This is very thin ice to skate on but here goes. The problem of what is and what isn't anti-Semitic is very confused and gets mixed up in many ways. In my head it's OK to criticise the Israeli state but (clearly) not OK to be anti-Jewish. Corbyn fundamentally, I think, wants to be a champion of the oppressed. Israel's policies and actions for many years have been open to criticism (being polite) in that area - so he has dashed in. But there is a difference between criticising Israel's policies and actions and trying to undermine it on the basis that it has no right to exist. The problem now is that Corbyn in trying to be a white knight has gone too far, allowed Labour party culture to become anti-Israeli and laid himself open to those at the other end of the spectrum who see any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic and will use whatever sticks they can to beat him with. I don't know how this problem can be fixed.

 

[Bantamzen]

And, with respect, that is the crux of the problem. The Corbyn fan club never see any antisemitism and don't believe there is an issue. The rest of us can see there is.

Its not just Corbyn Denial Syndrome some Labour activists are suffering from. I've recently been involved in a social media scuffle with some over a friend of mine being accused of sharing pro-Tory "propaganda" on their FB account. And the so-called propaganda? A link to the current opinion polls!! It seems that some Labour supporters can't even bring themselves to admitting that Labour are getting a bit of a routing in the polls, even though the Glorious Leader is back-flipping on strategy on an almost daily basis.

Frankly, this GE should be a safe bet for Labour. That they continue to muck it up is deeply worrying. No wonder BoJo sends his senior adviser to Channel 4 for the climate debate, almost literally a block of melting ice could defeat Labour at the moment.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No, I’m talking about the continual trampling of the constitution. Brexit and its process are an easy example to think of; for a start Johnson unlawfully advised the monarch and brought her into the political and populist sphere in a way we haven’t seen for centuries. Parliament is sovereign yet has forgotten its authority comes from its electors and will not implement the people’s choice. We are in a time where the ends justify the means.

Corbyn did not damage the constitution (although he promises a legally binding referendum, a legal impossibility really, as parliament must approve any Brexit and cannot bind itself to make a future decision!).

The Tories take most of the blame for this damage along with the Lib Dems.

Imagine the Tories have vandalised a car, tampered with its brakes and fixed its steering. I don’t want Johnson driving that car. But I don’t trust Corbyn behind the wheel either. He’s the purest of ideologues and should be - and will be - rejected at the election.

The Corbynistas are completely blind to the problem. I will not vote for Labour in its current guise. Find your votes elsewhere; you will find it difficult to build a majority. I will continue to enjoy the spectacle of utter political ineptitude across all parties.

I now understand your position. I do believe that with the necessary legislation we could have a binding decision on the outcome of a referendum; the process would be much more tightly controlled than before and subject to electoral law, which is a bonus.

And, with respect, that is the crux of the problem. The Corbyn fan club never see any antisemitism and don't believe there is an issue. The rest of us can see there is.

Its not just Corbyn Denial Syndrome some Labour activists are suffering from. I've recently been involved in a social media scuffle with some over a friend of mine being accused of sharing pro-Tory "propaganda" on their FB account. And the so-called propaganda? A link to the current opinion polls!! It seems that some Labour supporters can't even bring themselves to admitting that Labour are getting a bit of a routing in the polls, even though the Glorious Leader is back-flipping on strategy on an almost daily basis.

Frankly, this GE should be a safe bet for Labour. That they continue to muck it up is deeply worrying. No wonder BoJo sends his senior adviser to Channel 4 for the climate debate, almost literally a block of melting ice could defeat Labour at the moment.

I've posted this before - I am in no way, shape, or form a fan of Corbyn or his leadership. My politics are clearly left-leaning and it was regret (as Alan Sugar would say) that I resigned my Labour Party membership in 2017 as I was very unhappy with the direction it was heading and the p!ss poor Brexit performance. I do despair at the state of the party now, it should be a slam dunk with the duplicitous Boris Johnson, a PM who sends his Dad out to defend him for not showing at a debate and then again on live TV this morning.

I do believe that Corbyn has been demonised by the right-wing media, which represents the majority of the fourth estate, which is why I'm curious to know what people really want him to apologise for. I believe that many people simply do not know, yet they have seen something in the press and think that he should apologise for something, even if they have no idea what that something may be. If he does apologise you can be sure that the same media that asked for the apology will be rolling the presses the next day with headlines along the lines of "Corbyn admission that the Labour Party is Anti-semitic". As others have said, it's very much a lose-lose situation.

As for me, the choice in the election is very clear. Enable a Tory win in your own constituency by voting for them, if you're happy with the party and what they stand for or vote for the best-placed opposition party, even if you're not 100% behind them.

 

[edwin_m]

I now understand your position. I do believe that with the necessary legislation we could have a binding decision on the outcome of a referendum; the process would be much more tightly controlled than before and subject to electoral law, which is a bonus.

I think a "binding" referendum would be achieved simply by passing legislation that says the agreement comes into effect on a particular date unless the referendum turns it down. This would also have to be agreed with the EU, and would therefore only work if the agreement itself already sets out all the things that need to be agreed at that point. It would still be possible for Parliament to repeal that legislation before it came into effect, but obviously more difficult practically and politically than the current situation where they have to enact a new law for anything to happen.

 

[DarloRich]

The below quote is from the terrible MSM evilitude that is C4 so it will be rejected by the Corbyn cult but presented for consideration by the rest of the forum:

Leaked document casts doubt on Corbyn antisemitism claim...


...So if you thought Mr Corbyn’s claim that the party has “investigated every single case” meant that every allegation of antisemitism has received a full investigation by the Labour party, you’d be wrong.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...ment-casts-doubt-on-corbyn-antisemitism-claim

 

[SteveP29]

State owned Broadband, just like China, what people can and can't see can be controlled by the state.
Irresponsible spending plans to bankrupt the country.
High taxes for the rich to put off investment and allow the state to swoop in.
Corbyn bangs on about economic equality, which sounds an awful lot like communism imo.

What do YOU THINK is the reason they would contemplate blocking what you can and can't see?
What do YOU THINK will bankrupt the country?
How do YOU THINK investment will be put off by increasing taxes on the highest 5% earners and by raising Corporation Tax to levels STILL below most of the biggest economies in Europe?
What do YOU THINK is the difference between the socialism that Corbyn and Labour are proposing and Communism you think they stand for?

Now, no looking at what Johnson, the S*n, Daily Mail, Telegraph, BBC and Dave down the pub have told you, let me have YOUR investigation and analysis, because the way I read it, it sounds like that's exactly where you got those opinions from.
Otherwise I'm of the opinion (unsubstantiated of course, as I suspect, much like yours), because you think Labour and Corbyn are such a terrifying prospect, that you're happy to continue the regime of demonisation of the poor, sick and disabled, lies, empowering a man that leads a party that calls homosexuals 'tank top wearing bum boys', muslim women 'letterboxes', black people 'picaninnies with watermelon smiles', windrush, more lies, smears, Grenfell and other deathtraps, nationalism and alienation of our closest and largest trading partners

 

[SteveP29]

Imagine the Tories have vandalised a car, tampered with its brakes and fixed its steering. I don’t want Johnson driving that car. But I don’t trust Corbyn behind the wheel either. He’s the purest of ideologues and should be - and will be - rejected at the election.

Johnson would still sell you that car, for more than it's worth and let you drive it yourself, and if you're killed in it, he'd take no responsibility whatsoever and blame Labour for demanding repairs to a 'perfectly reasonable car'

 

[DarloRich]

liar, lair, pants on fire:

This one is the best I think \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Claim 3: "We have a Queen's Speech that was blocked by Parliament." In fact the Queen's Speech was passed by 16 votes on 24 October.'

General Election 2019: Boris Johnson's interview with Andrew Marr fact-checked'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50624056

 

[RealTrains07]

Cant read newspapers at the moment, cant trust any of them yet others still read them. Iam surprised they are blinded towards the fact that they are biased.

This election has been a toxic one and very revealing of the truth in some aspects of the media.

Very worried about living in a society controlled by Johnson

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Cant read newspapers at the moment, cant trust any of them yet others still read them. Iam surprised they are blinded towards the fact that they are biased.

This election has been a toxic one and very revealing of the truth in some aspects of the media.

Same in the USA I am afraid

 

[bramling]

Cant read newspapers at the moment, cant trust any of them yet others still read them. Iam surprised they are blinded towards the fact that they are biased.

This election has been a toxic one and very revealing of the truth in some aspects of the media.

Very worried about living in a society controlled by Johnson

The problem with this election is that people are very much voting on the basis of “least worst”, more so than in any election I can remember. It does seem to be the case that the majority feeling is Johnson is the least worst of a bad bunch. The more interesting question is how we have got to this position.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The more interesting question is how we have got to this position.

The most divisive issue of a lifetime - Brexit. IMHO

 

[bramling]

The most divisive issue of a lifetime - Brexit. IMHO

Corbyn pre-dates Brexit.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Corbyn pre-dates Brexit.

True. I think he truly believes fully blown socialism is the way forward. All history has shown otherwise and not learned the lessons of Labour in 1983. No matter what you thought of Blair, he was electable.

Boris has personality - unlike Theresa May- but he just comes across as being a buffoon.

Jo Swinson - bit of an unknown to me.

 

[Ianno87]

The most divisive issue of a lifetime - Brexit. IMHO

Corbyn pre-dates Brexit.

We wouldn't be having* this general election at all if it weren't for the Brexit catastro-****.

*Though next year would be 5 years since the 2015 Election, when everybody was happy and not endlessly debating bloody Brexit.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sounds like the root cause is David Cameron then?

 

[furnessvale]

Sounds like the root cause is David Cameron then?

IMO the root cause is successive governments taking us deeper into the European project without bothering to ask the people what they thought about it.

By the time they were given a vote, resentment had built up such that 17.4m voted leave. To continue with further EU integration without consulting the people would have simply led to even bigger problems further down the road.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

IMO the root cause is successive governments taking us deeper into the European project without bothering to ask the people what they thought about it.

By the time they were given a vote, resentment had built up such that 17.4m voted leave. To continue with further EU integration without consulting the people would have simply led to even bigger problems further down the road.

I love this answer - sounds like how a true democracy should work.

 

[Busaholic]

Jo Swinson - bit of an unknown to me.

She deserved to remain unknown. By comparison, Tim Farron was an intellectual colossus. Her latest disastrous, live interview on 'Woman's Hour' this morning plumbed the depths, it was so embarassing. She cries 'sexism' whenever she is challenged on anything, despite some of her severeist detractors being other women, many of a feminist persuasion. The more she's interviewed, the lower the LD ratings go. Prime Minister? She might not even get back into parliament.

 

[DerekC]

True. I think he truly believes fully blown socialism is the way forward. All history has shown otherwise and not learned the lessons of Labour in 1983. No matter what you thought of Blair, he was electable.

This betrays a distinct lack of historical knowlege. The Attlee Government (1945 - 1951) had policies similar to or to the left of Corbyn and put them into effect. In six years they successfully transformed British society for a couple of generations and many of the changes are still with us. And it's interesting to see what Michael Foot's headlines were in 1983. According to the BBC:

• Scrap Trident
• Leave the EU (!)
• Closer control of bank lending
• National minimum wage
• Ban hunting with dogs

Not so radical, it seems now. The consistent theme across the years is the strident opposition of 70% of the print media to anything that isn't Tory blue. Corbyn is not Prime Minister material in my opinion, but neither is he a red threat!

 

[bussnapperwm]

YouGov polling say Johnson won 52/48% on tonight's debate.

Did the Boris Bluster Bots watch a different debate to what was transmitted??