ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Steven_G]

So another breakdown blamed on the Speedo

ScotRail has a program of maintenance including sorting that.

So frustrating

 

[alangla]

Spotted on scot-rail - ScotRail to scrap seat reservations- https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...IqGPpVdQV3KkW_b9ECLi3Pw-lBGAOu4n6BlmTEv_jb6iw - presumably this is to save all the “reservations may not match” messages that you see on Journeycheck when a 170 or 158 replaces an HST and they’ll be retaining some sort of quota controlled advance product

 

[Deltic1961]

Definitely looking forward to the new timetable with far more journeys. Ha ha.

 

[option]

55 years old. Has any railway in Europe ever run such geriatric stock on long distance services?

Not everything is 55years old though, & that would be the earliest built ones.
The engines will be 25years old in 2030.

They will also not be running at anywhere near the stresses that they used to; 4/5 carriages instead of 6-9, 100mph instead of 125mph.

 

[CEN60]

Spotted on scot-rail - ScotRail to scrap seat reservations- https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...IqGPpVdQV3KkW_b9ECLi3Pw-lBGAOu4n6BlmTEv_jb6iw - presumably this is to save all the “reservations may not match” messages that you see on Journeycheck when a 170 or 158 replaces an HST and they’ll be retaining some sort of quota controlled advance product

I am not looking forward to my Glasgow - Inv trip pre Christmas (and return) on the back of this news - it's bad enough with reservations in place - this will be total carnage!

 

[Speed43125]

Not everything is 55years old though, & that would be the earliest built ones.
The engines will be 25years old in 2030.

They will also not be running at anywhere near the stresses that they used to; 4/5 carriages instead of 6-9, 100mph instead of 125mph.

Although, lots of stop start, especially with a few new stations planned. At some point hopefully we'll get parts of the HML cleared to >100 mph, but for now, that lower speed stop start will not do the engines any favours,

 

[marks87]

At some point hopefully we'll get parts of the HML cleared to >1000 mph...

That would be impressive!

 

[InOban]

Although, lots of stop start, especially with a few new stations planned. At some point hopefully we'll get parts of the HML cleared to >1000 mph, but for now, that lower speed stop start will not do the engines any favours,

I assume that you mean that all diesel engines need significant periods of full throttle working. In which case they will get plenty on the climb from Inverness to Slochd and either side of Drumochter.

 

[BRX]

55 years old. Has any railway in Europe ever run such geriatric stock on long distance services?

There are still quite a lot of Eurofirma coaches knocking around on the continent, and they are similar age or slightly older than the HSTs. I think there are also some of these, dating from the 50s/60s, still around in various states of refurbishment. So I think the answer is yes.

 

[John Bishop]

I assume that you mean that all diesel engines need significant periods of full throttle working. In which case they will get plenty on the climb from Inverness to Slochd and either side of Drumochter.

You say that, but HSTs will climb Drumochter in notch 3 once up to line speed if stopping at Blair Atholl. Same with up to Slochd, very little time spent in notch 5.

 

[Speed43125]

That would be impressive!

Haha, changed it now. I think though, Concorde had to be over ocean to be cleared to such speeds!
Thanks for pointing it out

 

[Speed43125]

I assume that you mean that all diesel engines need significant periods of full throttle working. In which case they will get plenty on the climb from Inverness to Slochd and either side of Drumochter.

My understanding is, like a car, they are happiest cruising along at their design speed (be it 100, 125 or otherwise), accelerating hard out of little stations will only create wear and tear on traction motors and the power units that will decrease the life of the power cars. That's why the LNER sets tend to be in better condition, less people getting on and off, less accelerating back up to line speed, just loads of miles sitting happily at 125.

 

[y3j]

So another breakdown blamed on the Speedo

ScotRail has a program of maintenance including sorting that.

So frustrating

Which power car had the fault? I understand they are still removing the ATP kit which is the prime cause of the speedo failures. Once configured back to original speedo its just a meter, two wires and the WSP rack.

 

[43096]

My understanding is, like a car, they are happiest cruising along at their design speed (be it 100, 125 or otherwise), accelerating hard out of little stations will only create wear and tear on traction motors and the power units that will decrease the life of the power cars. That's why the LNER sets tend to be in better condition, less people getting on and off, less accelerating back up to line speed, just loads of miles sitting happily at 125.

They’ve done 40 years reliably on a variety of high speed duties, from long-distance high speed to GW “Thames Valley” metro. Engines and other components are on a maintenance regime that reflects their duty cycle - so I really don’t see the issue.

 

[Speed43125]

They’ve done 40 years reliably on a variety of high speed duties, from long-distance high speed to GW “Thames Valley” metro. Engines and other components are on a maintenance regime that reflects their duty cycle - so I really don’t see the issue.

I agree, It shouldn't be an issue, but current ScR reliability shows otherwise.

 

[Highland37]

Maybe lots of the components are worn out.

 

[InvHst]

Ah the good old Speedo fault ironically that none of the fitters can fix before the train leaves the station funny thing is it's actually a really easy fix Inverness had the issue once with the 1727 Inverness to Glasgow service HST was about to be cancelled as the fitters couldn't fix it driver train manager came downloa and fixed immediately.... So how are the maintenance teams not knowing this fix

 

[cf111]

Spotted on scot-rail - ScotRail to scrap seat reservations- https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...IqGPpVdQV3KkW_b9ECLi3Pw-lBGAOu4n6BlmTEv_jb6iw - presumably this is to save all the “reservations may not match” messages that you see on Journeycheck when a 170 or 158 replaces an HST and they’ll be retaining some sort of quota controlled advance product

I think this farce has gone on for long enough now.

 

[43096]

I think this farce has gone on for long enough now.

What's your solution then, given where we are now? And no, you can't have a time machine to go back and change things.

 

[mcmad]

What's your solution then, given where we are now? And no, you can't have a time machine to go back and change things.

SO we've just to sit in silence with a steadily declining service North of the central belt until the franchise is up in 2025?

 

[43096]

SO we've just to sit in silence with a steadily declining service North of the central belt until the franchise is up in 2025?

Is that your solution?

 

[Struner]

55 years old. Has any railway in Europe ever run such geriatric stock on long distance services?

There are still quite a lot of Eurofirma coaches knocking around on the continent, and they are similar age or slightly older than the HSTs. I think there are also some of these, dating from the 50s/60s, still around in various states of refurbishment. So I think the answer is yes.

but those are coaches.
& there are some Mk2s in regular service as well I believe. They predate the HSTs.

 

[mcmad]

Is that your solution?

No that appeared to be your solution

 

[Bletchleyite]

but those are coaches.

Mk3s are coaches too. And the power cars have new engines. And there are plenty of older coaches out there on the mainland too - the slamdoor ones are likely 1970 or earlier.

What's the main cause of issues - power car failures or coach failures?

 

[Highland37]

Is that your solution?

My solution would be to firstly recognise the current situation which is that the fleet does not exist and the little that has been delivered, isn't that great.

Secondly, continue with the bear minimum of HSTs and units as the interim situation as long as required to deliver a new fleet which is probably at least 6 years.

But recognise that the current plans aren't working.

 

[Paul Kerr]

My solution would be to firstly recognise the current situation which is that the fleet does not exist and the little that has been delivered, isn't that great.

Secondly, continue with the bear minimum of HSTs and units as the interim situation as long as required to deliver a new fleet which is probably at least 6 years.

But recognise that the current plans aren't working.

I agree things need to change, but as someone pointed out earlier the issue which caused a cancellation yesterday was a speedo fault which is a simple fix and could have been reset if the fitter had the knowledge. Something is failing badly organizationally if a driver knows how to fix it and the maintenance crew doesn't. It looks like a classic case of the left hand not talking to the right. As @43096 and others have pointed out, these trains are running better elsewhere, and the data backs that up. I would argue the problems aren't with the trains themselves, and Wabtec seems to become a scapegoat for other issues which are much closer to home. I'm not blaming the crews; they are doing their best I'm sure. This seems to be a training or management system issue if the crews don't have adequate knowledge of the kit they're working with. Fix the organizational issues and make sure the teams are properly equipped for success; bringing in a new fleet of trains is just going to result in the same problems if the training and management system is inadequate.

 

[Highland37]

How on earth you can look at the facts and not blame wabtec is beyond me. They have failed in every possible way.

At a time when every other operator of HSTs is reducing their use, for good reasons, ScotRail are attempting to do the opposite.

How anyone can objectively look at the situation, without nostalgia goggles on, and not conclude that the entire project is a disaster...

 

[BRX]

but those are coaches.
& there are some Mk2s in regular service as well I believe. They predate the HSTs.

How about these swiss locos then, built from the 60s and still in widespread service?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Re_420

 

[Cashew]

I agree things need to change, but as someone pointed out earlier the issue which caused a cancellation yesterday was a speedo fault which is a simple fix and could have been reset if the fitter had the knowledge. Something is failing badly organizationally if a driver knows how to fix it and the maintenance crew doesn't. It looks like a classic case of the left hand not talking to the right. As @43096 and others have pointed out, these trains are running better elsewhere, and the data backs that up. I would argue the problems aren't with the trains themselves, and Wabtec seems to become a scapegoat for other issues which are much closer to home. I'm not blaming the crews; they are doing their best I'm sure. This seems to be a training or management system issue if the crews don't have adequate knowledge of the kit they're working with. Fix the organizational issues and make sure the teams are properly equipped for success; bringing in a new fleet of trains is just going to result in the same problems if the training and management system is inadequate.

I totally agree with everything you have said, but I do think that Wabtec have to take some of the blame too.

 

[JModulo]

Another HST (refurb) has arrived at Brodie, Kilmarnock for exam.