New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[class26]

Who said anything about 804s to Skegness.
The trains will be designed for the London services, because that's where they will be operating for the vast majority of the time, even of they do make it to Skegness. I suspect they'll have a similar seating layout to the GWR 800s actually, but with a much smaller kitchen area.

They will possibly make it to Skegness on a summer Saturday but could run as 5 cars which would solve the problem.

 

[Helvellyn]

Who said anything about 804s to Skegness.
The trains will be designed for the London services, because that's where they will be operating for the vast majority of the time, even of they do make it to Skegness. I suspect they'll have a similar seating layout to the GWR 800s actually, but with a much smaller kitchen area.

EMT ran two Summer Saturday services to Skegness using HSTs. One starting at Derby and one at Nottingham that stopped at Sleaford, Boston and Skegness. That was on top of some of the normal 15x services running as four/five coaches. Now EMR could choose not to run those once the 804s come but that would be a huge drop in Summer Saturday capacity, or they could hire in some stock.

My point about luggage racks was that LNER are adding more luggage space and the EMR HSTs already have some decent luggage space. Even the Meridians have decent sized luggage stacks.

 

[43096]

Now EMR could choose not to run those once the 804s come but that would be a huge drop in Summer Saturday capacity, or they could hire in some stock.

That would be taking it full circle if they hired in! EMT saved a considerable amount over the life of the franchise by using their own HSTs and provided a better service to passengers rather than hiring in manky old stock and a knackered old spoon.

 

[Jozhua]

That would be taking it full circle if they hired in! EMT saved a considerable amount over the life of the franchise by using their own HSTs and provided a better service to passengers rather than hiring in manky old stock and a knackered old spoon.

Maybe they'd be best served by keeping a couple of HSTs on for Skegness and reliability purposes, if another unit breaks down. *ahem*180*ahem*

 

[DDB]

Or they could continue to do what they so now! Which is use their intercity stock from the London route at weekends when the London route is less busy. This is currently HSTs but will become the 804s.
They might have to run non stop to Skegness if there is a problem with SDO grandfather rights but that is presumably where the demand is anyway.

 

[class26]

Or they could continue to do what they so now! Which is use their intercity stock from the London route at weekends when the London route is less busy. This is currently HSTs but will become the 804s.
They might have to run non stop to Skegness if there is a problem with SDO grandfather rights but that is presumably where the demand is anyway.

Why is there going to be a problem to Skegness? The new trains are all 5 cars compared to hST`s which are 8. 5 cars will fit at Sleaford & Boston no problem. the only problem comes if they are used as 10 cars surely ? The answer would be 2 separate services in that case.

 

[edwin_m]

Even though the 804s are shorter than 800-802 they will still need specific route clearance to Skegness.

 

[ashkeba]

The first main concern is about service reliability & resilience from Dec-2020 until 804s arrive, given the 180s not known for reliability. Will there be chronic cancellations and short-forming?

Not just 804s arrive but work consistently. Anyone wondering this might like to look at the threads about Abellio's Greater Anglia sending rolling stock away and not maintaining some as well despite the very nice new replacements are suffering introduction problems. Have Abellio learned from it or will they try the same at EMR?

 

[Domh245]

Not just 804s arrive but work consistently. Anyone wondering this might like to look at the threads about Abellio's Greater Anglia sending rolling stock away and not maintaining some as well despite the very nice new replacements are suffering introduction problems. Have Abellio learned from it or will they try the same at EMR?

The 804s should work pretty much out of the box, being based on the 80x fleet which are by and large running around without major issue now. There'll inevitably be some issues because of the different design but it should be a fairly easy introduction. Similarly there's no home lined up for the 222s as yet, so there shouldn't be the same pressure on EMR to lose their existing stock as GA have with their fleet (where the stock is needed at other TOCs for PRM compliance)

 

[Haydn1971]

I’d be interested in people’s thoughts for the 222 fleet post introduction of the 804s, I’d asked a few weeks back but the thread was locked with no direction to where this was been discussed... candidate’s in my mind other than the obvious CrossCountry options would be with the Nottingham-Liverpool services, Northerns busier Connect services, think someone mentioned Chiltern, but perhaps also on the East-West rail link ? Or is that wired ? Scotrail seem focused on the short formations of HSTs, how are they going at the moment ?

Happy to shift this to a new thread if the mods see fit...

 

[swt_passenger]

I’d be interested in people’s thoughts for the 222 fleet post introduction of the 804s, I’d asked a few weeks back but the thread was locked with no direction to where this was been discussed... candidate’s in my mind other than the obvious CrossCountry options would be with the Nottingham-Liverpool services, Northerns busier Connect services, think someone mentioned Chiltern, but perhaps also on the East-West rail link ? Or is that wired ? Scotrail seem focused on the short formations of HSTs, how are they going at the moment ?

Happy to shift this to a new thread if the mods see fit...

This is possibly the best place, but I was also thinking transfer to Nottingham - Liverpool could work, and the route transfer could be timed around 804 delivery...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-22x-units.167576/page-15

 

[Haydn1971]

Ah cheers ! Was looking for 222 not 22x

 

[supervc-10]

This is possibly the best place, but I was also thinking transfer to Nottingham - Liverpool could work, and the route transfer could be timed around 804 delivery...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-22x-units.167576/page-15

What about the 185s?

 

[swt_passenger]

What about the 185s?

They’d be too short? But this isn’t really the place to discuss that route...

 

[Class 170101]

I'd expect the 80x type units to be too heavy for the Skegness Line. Even the HSTs are limited to low speeds in some parts. I'd suggest perhaps that more chance of Class 80x on Crewe to Newark Castle services (service pattern as per EMR Consultation) displacing the lighter Sprinter units for Skegness.

 

[OTRail]

I'd expect the 80x type units to be too heavy for the Skegness Line. Even the HSTs are limited to low speeds in some parts. I'd suggest perhaps that more chance of Class 80x on Crewe to Newark Castle services (service pattern as per EMR Consultation) displacing the lighter Sprinter units for Skegness.

By that point it’ll all be turbostars on regional routes (2 & 3 car units) so it may not be necessary to use Intercity stock on Skegness summer services by that point. Then again, hard to say

 

[Class 170101]

By that point it’ll all be turbostars on regional routes (2 & 3 car units) so it may not be necessary to use Intercity stock on Skegness summer services by that point. Then again, hard to say

Unless there are specific restrictions Class 170s are allowed to use the Sprinter Differentials.

 

[43096]

By that point it’ll all be turbostars on regional routes (2 & 3 car units) so it may not be necessary to use Intercity stock on Skegness summer services by that point. Then again, hard to say

But will there be sufficient spare on a weekend to run two 7/8 car additional diagrams? Because currently there are two full length HST sets used on Summer Saturdays.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'd expect the 80x type units to be too heavy for the Skegness Line. Even the HSTs are limited to low speeds in some parts. I'd suggest perhaps that more chance of Class 80x on Crewe to Newark Castle services (service pattern as per EMR Consultation) displacing the lighter Sprinter units for Skegness.

I would expect that to be honest. Maybe 6 car 170s with the IC stock on other routes.

Likewise by the other operators / ROSCOs could have stock to spot hire.

 

[hooverboy]

But will there be sufficient spare on a weekend to run two 7/8 car additional diagrams? Because currently there are two full length HST sets used on Summer Saturdays.

I guess if the 153's/156's are retained then they would be diagramming most of regular schedule as 4 car rather than 3 in summer.
4 car is about the max that the bay platform at nottingham will take.

I very much doubt the bimodes wold be running on nottingsham-skeg-
as rightly pointed out they are a lot heavier(and longer to boot at 24m)

 

[Kneedown]

I'd expect the 80x type units to be too heavy for the Skegness Line. Even the HSTs are limited to low speeds in some parts.

HST's can do regular line speed over Skegness. Have been able to for some years now.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd expect the 80x type units to be too heavy for the Skegness Line. Even the HSTs are limited to low speeds in some parts. I'd suggest perhaps that more chance of Class 80x on Crewe to Newark Castle services (service pattern as per EMR Consultation) displacing the lighter Sprinter units for Skegness.

HST's can do regular line speed over Skegness. Have been able to for some years now.

And surely the axle load of an 80x is a lot less than of a HST power car?

 

[Merle Haggard]

The original announcement suggested strongly that the 180s together with the few 222s released from Corby, with revised diagramming, were intended to allow the HSTs to go offlease before the new 804s started being delivered. As far as I can tell the ex LNER HSTs that replace existing HSTs will still have to go before the 804s arrive, so it follows the 180s role in the transition is still required?

Thank you, and also for the other response to my query.

It does seem that the original reason for the acquisition of the GC HSTs has been forgotten, perhaps conveniently. There are currently 3 GC sets working two diagrams, one of which is very undemanding and the other, although it visits Sheffield, is not particularly intense, either. These will be replaced by (I think...) 4 Cl 180 sets. Now I realise that this class has a bad reputation but covering two diagrams with four sets would seem to allow a lot of slack, which could perhaps be used to work another diagram.

I still wonder whether the DfT will be picking up the lease charges for the Cl 180s and whether this would also include maintenance (and even delay attribution costs) but I'm sure the people at DfT are far to clever to be manoeuvred into underwriting what could well be a high running-cost train...

 

[yorksrob]

Thank you, and also for the other response to my query.

It does seem that the original reason for the acquisition of the GC HSTs has been forgotten, perhaps conveniently. There are currently 3 GC sets working two diagrams, one of which is very undemanding and the other, although it visits Sheffield, is not particularly intense, either. These will be replaced by (I think...) 4 Cl 180 sets. Now I realise that this class has a bad reputation but covering two diagrams with four sets would seem to allow a lot of slack, which could perhaps be used to work another diagram.

I can't imagine there being much slack when the LNER HST's dissappear from the end of next year, with just a few Corby EMU's to replace them.

 

[43096]

I can't imagine there being much slack when the LNER HST's dissappear from the end of next year, with just a few Corby EMU's to replace them.

Been done to death in threads on here. There's actually an increase in fleet size that results.

 

[hooverboy]

I still wonder whether the DfT will be picking up the lease charges for the Cl 180s and whether this would also include maintenance (and even delay attribution costs) but I'm sure the people at DfT are far to clever to be manoeuvred into underwriting what could well be a high running-cost train...

hence why I see them being palmed off on another route where they aren't going to get thrashed.
I'm sure grand central would jump at the chance to get rid of theirs too ( ex EMR 222's as replacements?)

 

[yorksrob]

Been done to death in threads on here. There's actually an increase in fleet size that results.

Yes, there have been a lot of vague hopes expressed that there will be enough 222's to run the long distance services.

 

[Class 170101]

Been done to death in threads on here. There's actually an increase in fleet size that results.

Maybe at peak times but it will depend upon the type of maintenance contract thats been signed with Hitachi and Bombardier as to whether they are available at weekends.

 

[RealTrains07]

https://www.northantstelegraph.co.u...ing-and-wellingborough-train-services-1321193

Per this article, the 360/1s from GA that are operating the EMR Electrics services won’t be refurbished/uprated to 110mph when they first enter service

Unfortunately thats what happens when you make a massive order of new trains which get delayed disrupting plans of other franchises

 

[RealTrains07]

The fleet goes from 233 vehicles currently to 247 next year and then 249 when the new Hitachi sets arrive.

Currently it's:
HST 9 x 8-car = 72
HST 3 x 6-car = 18
222 6 x 7-car = 42
222 17 x 5-car = 85
222 4 x 4-car = 16
Total = 233

From December next year it is:
180 4 x 5-car = 20
222 6 x 7-car = 42
222 17 x 5-car = 85
222 4 x 4-car = 16
360 21 x 4-car = 84
Total = 247

From 2023 it is:
360 21 x 4-car = 84
804 33 x 5-car = 165
Total = 249

I'm not understanding what all the flapping is about.

Maybe its the fact that its only an increase of 2. Not that great really.