• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Virgin West Coast Open Access Application

Status
Not open for further replies.

theshillito

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2014
Messages
284
Location
Crewe
What ever happened to Alliance Rail getting some Pendolinos? I know they gave up on getting them, but are there some knocking about somewhere, or would they have been freshly built?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
What ever happened to Alliance Rail getting some Pendolinos? I know they gave up on getting them, but are there some knocking about somewhere, or would they have been freshly built?
They would have been newly built units, the existing Pendolino fleet is fully utilised on franchised West Coast duties. That plan has been superseded by the use of shortened mark 4 rakes released from the East Coast main line with either class 90 or 91 locos, potentially from Spring next year.
 

theshillito

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2014
Messages
284
Location
Crewe
They would have been newly built units, the existing Pendolino fleet is fully utilised on franchised West Coast duties. That plan has been superseded by the use of shortened mark 4 rakes released from the East Coast main line with either class 90 or 91 locos, potentially from Spring next year.
Thank you. That rules out Virgin doing that. I'm assuming they won't want to build some new trains for this little project.
 

jh64

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2015
Messages
100
I'm sure someone's posted here that some Virgin bods were apparently looking intently at CAF's 397s for Transpennine.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,748
I thought it was said somewhere virgin would be looking to take 91s and mark 4 for the Liverpool service?
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,420
It would be a brave politician who allowed a new long distance diesel service entirely under the wires rather than Avanti WC running full electrics.....
 

Agent_Squash

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2016
Messages
1,232
It won't be 221s, the environmental lobby will shut it down. What would be interesting if VT/Avanti were forced to do 1tp2h using the new paths, but it seems like the ORR would be given advice to end that. VT/Avanti in direct competition would be very good for the consumer, though.
 

Agent_Squash

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2016
Messages
1,232
Best tell Virgin Trains that as they seem to think it will be!
Slightly ironic for Virgin considering a significant number of their own WCML ads have been about them being a greener way to travel!

I would struggle to guess what they'd use instead though. But there's no way it would get through in today's political climate.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,124
I actually think this should be rejected on environmental grounds, with them forced to procure some EMUs.
Why, when any alternative is likley to involve running them for many more years under the wires of the ECML & GWML anyway.?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Why, when any alternative is likley to involve running them for many more years under the wires of the ECML & GWML anyway.?

On XC, you mean? Rather a stronger case for using DMUs than a wholly electrified route, no?

If 80x can run at 125 without tilt, perhaps 91+Mk4 would be a better bet. Or ideally new EMUs - 10 car Class 397s would be very nice.

I'm more than a little bit opposed to this - there is really no reason why we should be permitting DMUs on wholly electrified routes any more.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,124
On XC, you mean? .
Yes, unless there’s a serious plan for them to go elsewhere.
As it’s now suggested HS2 won’t finally open until 2030, I think it’s a bit premature to be rushing into replacing a sizeable number of currently 125 mph WCML trains with stock limited only to 110 mph
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Yes, unless there’s a serious plan for them to go elsewhere.
As it’s now suggested HS2 won’t finally open until 2030, I think it’s a bit premature to be rushing into replacing a sizeable number of currently 125 mph WCML trains with stock limited only to 110 mph

Then they need to order 125mph EMUs of some kind.

We should not be allowing new services with DMUs running wholly on electrified lines.

Hopefully this will result in a load of bad publicity and the whole thing will just go away (or he will get an order in for some 80x or 397s or something).
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
Couldn't they have bid class 350/2s and refit them in 2+2?

Wasn't it reported that Avanti WC finalised the rolling stock order with Hitachi last week for the 13 + 10?

If this is, in part, so they can run the Liverpool EMU, then what happens to that order if the paths are given to VT for Voyagers to run?

Would they (Avanti) not have quite a few surplus trains ordered if that happened?
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I actually think this should be rejected on environmental grounds, with them forced to procure some EMUs.

Network Code Part D (Clause 4.6.2) does state that Network Rail are required to consider Environmental factors when making Decisions on Track Access.

I guess more commonly that will relate to noise and vibration issues (e.g. diesel engines idling in loops near houses).

It would be pretty radical for NR or the ORR to attempt to reject the paths on emissions grounds. The VT counter argument is likely to be "well, it's probably better than every passenger travelling by car".
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,542
Location
Redcar
Couldn't they have bid class 350/2s and refit them in 2+2?

Yes but then they couldn't also bid for 125mph paths which would extend their journey time and potentially make it harder to path them full stop.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,838
Network Code Part D (Clause 4.6.2) does state that Network Rail are required to consider Environmental factors when making Decisions on Track Access.

I guess more commonly that will relate to noise and vibration issues (e.g. diesel engines idling in loops near houses).

It would be pretty radical for NR or the ORR to attempt to reject the paths on emissions grounds. The VT counter argument is likely to be "well, it's probably better than every passenger travelling by car".
Decision criteria is a bit woolly to be fair, what one person thinks could be quite different to another.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Presumably this is Virgin trying to get their application in before Avanti have theirs in and be first in the queue?

If Avanti don't get the paths it will be very expensive for DfT.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
It would be a brave politician who allowed a new long distance diesel service entirely under the wires rather than Avanti WC running full electrics.....

It's not down to the politicians though, the ORR will decide on a competitive basis, assuming Network Rail can find the paths (not guaranteed).
The 221s won't become free until Avanti's new trains arrive (2022), although Virgin probably don't need the full current fleet (20).
It may be that Virgin have bid for these with the Rosco to avoid XC picking them up (XC franchise currently in limbo).
More IC225s could be used - TfW and GC are only taking a few.
If Avanti can run at 125mph non-tilt on the WCML (also not guaranteed|) then so can Virgin.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
Presumably this is Virgin trying to get their application in before Avanti have theirs in and be first in the queue?

If Avanti don't get the paths it will be very expensive for DfT.
Avanti's TAA is online as well. The only point worth mentioning from that is possibly that they reckon NR will be raising some speeds to 125 mph...
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,461
Network Code Part D (Clause 4.6.2) does state that Network Rail are required to consider Environmental factors when making Decisions on Track Access.

I guess more commonly that will relate to noise and vibration issues (e.g. diesel engines idling in loops near houses).

It would be pretty radical for NR or the ORR to attempt to reject the paths on emissions grounds. The VT counter argument is likely to be "well, it's probably better than every passenger travelling by car".

The decision criteria are for NR to offer paths, not to determine Track Access. Determining Track Access is what the ORR do.

The decision criteria are not pass/fail. They are a list of issues that NR should take note of, where relevant, in offering paths to operators. The ORR may already have granted Track Access to an operator by this time, irrespective of the formal timetable bid/offer process.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
Is it confirmed that this TAA is still in the pipeline given that it was made by VT while they were still running the WC Franchise and before the award to Avanti unless I am mistaken?
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
I know it's probably not in the ORRs's remit with this, but would it not be for the greater good if the rolling stock shortage at XC were taken into account? As the Voyagers being snapped up elsewhere could have a detrimental effect on a potential lengthening of trains on the franchised XC north to south operation?
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I know it's probably not in the ORRs's remit with this, but would it not be for the greater good if the rolling stock shortage at XC were taken into account? I.e. for the greater good? As the Voyagers being snapped up elsewhere could have a detrimental effect on a potential lengthening of trains on the franchised XC north to south operation?

As there's a goodly number of 222s about to become available, I don't think I'd get too hung up on that. I do however think we should get hung up on a proposal to run DMUs wholly under the wires - and not just any DMU, but one of the most diesel-guzzling kinds with nearly 20 year old engines emitting particulates all over the place.

I have no great issue with them doing it (not that I'm likely to use it), but they really need to procure new EMUs for it assuming 91+Mk4 isn't an option.
 

M28361M

Member
Joined
15 May 2014
Messages
531
Location
Liverpool
The ex Virgin Trains Voyagers are the intended stock for the er... Virgin Trains open access hourly Liverpool service, there’s a track access application appeared:
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...s-limited-daft-track-access-contract-form.pdf

There's an unfortunate typo in that document name. A freudian slip by whoever uploaded it, possibly? :smile:

Looking at Companies House, "Virgin Trains Limited" is listed as a dormant company. Unsurprisingly it is a separate company from the franchised VT operation which was "West Coast Trains Limited", although it seems to have many of the same people involved (or at least it did until 8 December).
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,748
VT/Avanti in direct competition would be very good for the consumer, though.
Thats one of the reasons why i think ORR will favour virgin.
Isnt the point of open access operators to create competition in the existing market?
 

Josh1351

New Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
3
Location
Swansea
The WCML is getting quite congested as each year passes by, more and more open access operators could result in major issues if HS2 is not complete in time.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Thats one of the reasons why i think ORR will favour virgin.
Isnt the point of open access operators to create competition in the existing market?

If they don't favour the franchised operator with a franchise commitment they want their heads examining.

There is already competition (gross incompetition? :D) - LNR. And coaches. And the car, as everyone seems to forget.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top