Avanti West Coast New Stock - Hitachi chosen

[TRAX]

The Avanties

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst the door colour does contrast with body colour alongside, the passenger doors aren't all the same colour. Some doors are white, next to a dark green bodyside: whilst others are dark green, next to a white bodyside. Does any other TOC do that?

Northern - the doors are blue on a white background or white on a blue background as appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we know what they will call the AT300s? For pendolino and voyager they used the model of train as the name but AT300 doesn't sound great.

Frecciaverde?

 

[TRAX]

Flying Pesto Spaghetti

 

[transmanche]

Northern - the doors are blue on a white background or white on a blue background as appropriate.

Thank you, it's amazing what you see but don't really notice! (Although up here in the NE, all the trains I've been on recently have been sporting the 'old' Northern or Scotrail livery!)

A quick Google Image search shows that it's only some units which have this (e.g. 156, 158, 170, 333). The units with doors closer to 1/3-2/3 positions (e.g. 150, 195, 319, 331) have all their doors coloured blue.

 

[The Ham]

The 11-car sets require a third transformer, located on the additional trailer vehicle, to cope with the increased electrical loading from the additional motor vehicle. You can't just add an extra motor vehicle to a 9 car set without the transformer trailer car, and just adding the transformer trailer to a set would have a negative effect on performance as noted above.

Plus there are 35 11-car and 21 9-car sets, so even if you could reform them what you would actually end up is a mixed fleet of 10 and 11 car units.

As I understand it, the requirement for an extra transformer is part of the reason that Project Thor (bimodal upgrade to the Voyagers) was going to cost so much, as there would have needed to be one for each 6 coach unit.

 

[toby_farman]

From twitter...

Anybody know anything more about this?

 

[hexagon789]

View attachment 71558

When you ask Avanti West Coast about their new trains...

Have they finalised all the details on the order yet?

 

[toby_farman]

Have they finalised all the details on the order yet?

Not sure.

They will definitely be part of the Hitachi AT300 series though.

 

[hexagon789]

Not sure.

They will definitely be part of the Hitachi AT300 series though.

Indeed, so perhaps they could have said that.

 

[SuperNova]

View attachment 71558

When you ask Avanti West Coast about their new trains...

Of course Social Media Advisers aren't going to know this. They're not really supposed to!

 

[Mathew S]

View attachment 71558

When you ask Avanti West Coast about their new trains...

Of course Social Media Advisers aren't going to know this. They're not really supposed to!

Without going back through their whole feed I can't find it, but they have answered these questions on other occasions to other people. They've said that no, they won't tilt, but that they will be just as fast, at 125 mph.

 

[greatvoyager]

Without going back through their whole feed I can't find it, but they have answered these questions on other occasions to other people. They've said that no, they won't tilt, but that they will be just as fast, at 125 mph.

And tilt is becoming less important.

 

[Mathew S]

And tilt is becoming less important.

Exactly. You only have to look at the 110 mph 350s to see that.
It will be interesting to see how TPEs new stock performs without tilt, and how good (or otherwise) it is at keeping to time. I think that will tell us a lot about whether Avanti have made the right choice.

 

[greatvoyager]

Exactly. You only have to look at the 110 mph 350s to see that.
It will be interesting to see how TPEs new stock performs without tilt, and how good (or otherwise) it is at keeping to time. I think that will tell us a lot about whether Avanti have made the right choice.

It'll be interesting to see, but as the AT300 aren't doing the Scottish services, that probably indicates they still won't be able to keep exactly to time with tilting stock on Avanti services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Without going back through their whole feed I can't find it, but they have answered these questions on other occasions to other people. They've said that no, they won't tilt, but that they will be just as fast, at 125 mph.

We know from the online Avanti track access application that the new stock definitely won’t tilt. Asking their media people for confirmation of something already widely known is a bit of a waste of time...

 

[Mathew S]

We know from the online Avanti track access application that the new stock definitely won’t tilt. Asking their media people for confirmation of something already widely known is a bit of a waste of time...

I'm not sure I'd describe the contents of a track access application as 'widely known'.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not sure I'd describe the contents of a track access application as 'widely known'.

It’s been mentioned on here somewhere. Problem is similar subjects come up in a variety of threads.

 

[Mathew S]

It’s been mentioned on here somewhere. Problem is similar subjects come up in a variety of threads.

Yeah, I know
What I was getting at is that the general Twittering public aren't likely to know, and it's those people whose questions the Avanti Twitter team are pitching their answers at.

 

[greatvoyager]

I wonder what the layout will be on the 7-car EMUs, I imagine 2 first and 5 standard if they can be close to pendolino capacity.

 

[gingertom]

I'm keen to find out how many pantograph & transformer cars the 7 car electric set will have and the number of traction bogies. And whether there will be a "donkey" engine to maintain hotel power and limp home capabiity or perhaps batteries? Hopefully front and rear pan cars like the 800/801/802 and 5 powered vehicles would be more than sufficient whereas one pan car in car 4 and all the rest powered and it could take on a Javelin and win- a bit of overkill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what the layout will be on the 7-car EMUs, I imagine 2 first and 5 standard if they can be close to pendolino capacity.

I'd expect that, yes. Question is is it a full 2 First, i.e. end coach, next one and half the following one, or just 1.5 i.e. two end coaches. I would reckon on the latter, though it might not work well with premium economy unless these trains are not to have "full" First at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm keen to find out how many pantograph & transformer cars the 7 car electric set will have and the number of traction bogies. And whether there will be a "donkey" engine to maintain hotel power and limp home capabiity or perhaps batteries? Hopefully front and rear pan cars like the 800/801/802 and 5 powered vehicles would be more than sufficient whereas one pan car in car 4 and all the rest powered and it could take on a Javelin and win- a bit of overkill.

All the existing AT300 based units have two pans, whether 5, 6, or 9 car; it seems unlikely a 7 wouldn’t have two as well?

 

[gingertom]

All the existing AT300 based units have two pans, whether 5, 6, or 9 car; it seems unlikely a 7 wouldn’t have two as well?

agreed, 2 is the winning formula, it ain't broke so don't fix it. Leaves scope for 5 powered cars, which means it could prove to be very nippy indeed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Modern Railways (Jan) has some comment on the new Hitachi AT300s for Avanti WC.
They will not tilt and the 10x7-car electric versions will be confined to routes south of Preston, normally on Birmingham and Liverpool services.
The 13x5-car bi-modes will work off the wires to Holyhead, Gobowen (via Chester/Wrexham) and Shrewsbury (from Wolverhampton).
The 110mph non-tilt speed limit on the WCML will remain - they will be relying on faster acceleration to keep up with tilting Pendolinos.
Avanti are "working with Network Rail" to look at options for increasing non-tilt line speed in some locations.
There will be no diesel powerpacks or battery backups fitted.
The electric versions will therefore displace 390s on Birmingham/Liverpool routes, which will then replace the remaining 221s on Anglo-Scottish services.

So it looks like Liverpool and Birmingham services will become a mix of 390s and AT300s.
The 7-car AT300s will have 453 seats, as opposed to 469 in a current 9-car 390 (it's not clear if 390 capacity will change with the planned refurbishment).
The 5-car bi-modes will have 301 seats compared to 258 on the 221s (presumably doubling up in the peaks as now).
The 390 refurbishment will include the same new standard class seats as on the AT300s, but first class seats will not change.

I somehow doubt if we will see much 125mph running on the WCML, either with CAF's 397s or Hitachi's AT300s, without expensive realignment.
If it was a central part of the plan, I think one or both of the TOCs or NR would have come out and said so by now.
There's a decade yet before it will be needed for HS2 services running through to the WCML.
Does that sound about right?
There must still be a concern about replacing 125mph 390/221 paths with 110mph AT300 paths.

 

[Energy]

Modern Railways (Jan) has some comment on the new Hitachi AT300s for Avanti WC.
They will not tilt and the 10x7-car electric versions will be confined to routes south of Preston, normally on Birmingham and Liverpool services.
The 13x5-car bi-modes will work off the wires to Holyhead, Gobowen (via Chester/Wrexham) and Shrewsbury (from Wolverhampton).
The 110mph non-tilt speed limit on the WCML will remain - they will be relying on faster acceleration to keep up with tilting Pendolinos.
Avanti are "working with Network Rail" to look at options for increasing non-tilt line speed in some locations.
There will be no diesel powerpacks or battery backups fitted.
The electric versions will therefore displace 390s on Birmingham/Liverpool routes, which will then replace the remaining 221s on Anglo-Scottish services.

So it looks like Liverpool and Birmingham services will become a mix of 390s and AT300s.
The 7-car AT300s will have 453 seats, as opposed to 469 in a current 9-car 390 (it's not clear if 390 capacity will change with the planned refurbishment).
The 5-car bi-modes will have 301 seats compared to 258 on the 221s (presumably doubling up in the peaks as now).
The 390 refurbishment will include the same new standard class seats as on the AT300s, but first class seats will not change.

I somehow doubt if we will see much 125mph running on the WCML, either with CAF's 397s or Hitachi's AT300s, without expensive realignment.
If it was a central part of the plan, I think one or both of the TOCs or NR would have come out and said so by now.
There's a decade yet before it will be needed for HS2 services running through to the WCML.
Does that sound about right?
There must still be a concern about replacing 125mph 390/221 paths with 110mph AT300 paths.

Do you have a link to this?

 

[greatvoyager]

Modern Railways (Jan) has some comment on the new Hitachi AT300s for Avanti WC.
They will not tilt and the 10x7-car electric versions will be confined to routes south of Preston, normally on Birmingham and Liverpool services.
The 13x5-car bi-modes will work off the wires to Holyhead, Gobowen (via Chester/Wrexham) and Shrewsbury (from Wolverhampton).
The 110mph non-tilt speed limit on the WCML will remain - they will be relying on faster acceleration to keep up with tilting Pendolinos.
Avanti are "working with Network Rail" to look at options for increasing non-tilt line speed in some locations.
There will be no diesel powerpacks or battery backups fitted.
The electric versions will therefore displace 390s on Birmingham/Liverpool routes, which will then replace the remaining 221s on Anglo-Scottish services.

So it looks like Liverpool and Birmingham services will become a mix of 390s and AT300s.
The 7-car AT300s will have 453 seats, as opposed to 469 in a current 9-car 390 (it's not clear if 390 capacity will change with the planned refurbishment).
The 5-car bi-modes will have 301 seats compared to 258 on the 221s (presumably doubling up in the peaks as now).
The 390 refurbishment will include the same new standard class seats as on the AT300s, but first class seats will not change.

I somehow doubt if we will see much 125mph running on the WCML, either with CAF's 397s or Hitachi's AT300s, without expensive realignment.
If it was a central part of the plan, I think one or both of the TOCs or NR would have come out and said so by now.
There's a decade yet before it will be needed for HS2 services running through to the WCML.
Does that sound about right?
There must still be a concern about replacing 125mph 390/221 paths with 110mph AT300 paths.

While I agree there is concern, I think the lower top speed will be countered by the faster acceleration.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you have a link to this?

It’s from the printed magazine article...

 

[greatvoyager]

Modern Railways (Jan) has some comment on the new Hitachi AT300s for Avanti WC.
They will not tilt and the 10x7-car electric versions will be confined to routes south of Preston, normally on Birmingham and Liverpool services.
The 13x5-car bi-modes will work off the wires to Holyhead, Gobowen (via Chester/Wrexham) and Shrewsbury (from Wolverhampton).
The 110mph non-tilt speed limit on the WCML will remain - they will be relying on faster acceleration to keep up with tilting Pendolinos.
Avanti are "working with Network Rail" to look at options for increasing non-tilt line speed in some locations.
There will be no diesel powerpacks or battery backups fitted.
The electric versions will therefore displace 390s on Birmingham/Liverpool routes, which will then replace the remaining 221s on Anglo-Scottish services.

So it looks like Liverpool and Birmingham services will become a mix of 390s and AT300s.
The 7-car AT300s will have 453 seats, as opposed to 469 in a current 9-car 390 (it's not clear if 390 capacity will change with the planned refurbishment).
The 5-car bi-modes will have 301 seats compared to 258 on the 221s (presumably doubling up in the peaks as now).
The 390 refurbishment will include the same new standard class seats as on the AT300s, but first class seats will not change.

I somehow doubt if we will see much 125mph running on the WCML, either with CAF's 397s or Hitachi's AT300s, without expensive realignment.
If it was a central part of the plan, I think one or both of the TOCs or NR would have come out and said so by now.
There's a decade yet before it will be needed for HS2 services running through to the WCML.
Does that sound about right?
There must still be a concern about replacing 125mph 390/221 paths with 110mph AT300 paths.

Also, if HS2 goes ahead, they probably won't need to have stock that can go 125mph, as the WCML would effectively become the secondary service.

 

[Speed43125]

Any news on the ratio of power-to-trailer cars on the AT300s?