Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

[Bletchleyite]

And, if the hear say that I've got wind of is true, front-line staff don't make threats of a violent nature towards paying customers. No railway worker, whatever the disruption, should be subject to aggressive behaviour or abuse.

There is a line between a justifiably angry complaint and abuse, though. Violence is never acceptable, nor is personal abuse nor swearing. But in some quarters an assertive complaint is seen as abuse, particularly if the person making it is perhaps large and threatening looking.

I had a member of staff at Luton Airport accuse me of abusing them when making a complaint about how lost luggage was being dealt with - they threatened to call security and everything. However, one of the managers nearby had listened to the whole thing and near enough told them not to be stupid (I forget the wording but that was strongly implied), sent them into the back to calm down and dealt with the complaint (which wasn't aggressive, though I was annoyed) to my satisfaction, which is what that member of staff should have done in the first place.

 

[northernchris]

That they are even needed shows just how bad things have got. (Euston seems to have gained them recently, I wonder if someone in Network Rail has a bee in their bonnet? At Euston they are useless and just get in the way, and are powerless to do anything about the "Euston scrum" as if you attempt to stand in the way of it you will get trampled).

Indeed, it's not great. They seem to spend most of their time on platform 16, another hostile environment where scores of passengers are waiting for delayed or non existent westbound TPE services

It is one of the worst large businesses I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.

You need to experience First West Yorkshire! They take incompetence to a whole new level

 

[YorkshireBear]

Maybe what we've seen tonight is a sign that northern staff themselves are at breaking point, as well as the timetable and the rostering.

 

[stepho]

So whilst still unclear as to actual events, the union has spoken to the MEN and it doesn't look like an assault happened otherwise they would have said so. The MEN report they put a guy that has had an operation on his foot with a newborn on three wrong trains, then leaving him on the wrong platform to get the correct train (I assume his fourth) then apparently tell him to 'get a job'- if i'm honest I would have given some robust feedback too. According to reports he wasn't the only unhappy person.

Is that worth walking of the job and shutting down a major station for? Feels to me that this was more a straw that broke the camels back with the underlying issues at Northern as opposed to this one incident warranting that action.

Maybe in true Northern spirit they can placate the situation going forwards by hiring more those poorly trained security/revenue goons in hi-viz to yell at people whilst still providing a terrible service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe what we've seen tonight is a sign that northern staff themselves are at breaking point, as well as the timetable and the rostering.

The whole TOC is, and the answer is staring them in the face. The publicity from service cuts would be bad, but it can't be any worse than the publicity they are getting at the moment.

 

[Jozhua]

Tbh, after working in a customer service role, I would not blame a single person for just walking off if they faced verbal or physical abuse.

It's a bit of a mess for everyone really, the staff, the commuters trying to get home. Just another unfortunate incident on a list of many.

I think the big takeaway really is that you have to be respectful, because a lot of these people are just people. The staff are clearly overwhelmed and need more support in their job roles, BTP probably need a larger presence too.

I think what doesn't help with Victoria is that for a station its size, it takes a hell of a lot of passengers, yet is probably staffed more proportional to it's physical dimensions. If anything, as the station is overcapacity passenger and train wise, probably needs more people to help guide the flows.

I think TPE, Network Rail and Northern Rail management needs to visit Victoria and sit down with the staff to get to the bottom of this. Clearly, any of the larger issues in regards to service patterns and reliability are going to take longer to fix, so improving working conditions for the staff dealing with these situations in the short term is vital.

 

[SuperNova]

Maybe what we've seen tonight is a sign that northern staff themselves are at breaking point, as well as the timetable and the rostering.

Or the railway is? Broken down 331 at Man Pic plus points failure on the Calder Valley means Manchester pretty much shuts down.

We're crying out for investment and not just high speed. Staff at all levels feel it.

 

[Mathew S]

I don't have all the facts - so I'm not even going to attempt to comment on this evenings incident. What I will do is make some general observations about my experience as a passenger at Manchester Victoria in the last few weeks.

Information
When things go wrong - platform alteration, delay, cancellation, whatever - there's just not enough communication to passengers of what's happening. The station is overreliant on the information screens of which there are too few, and which often don't give the information that a passgenger actually needs ("Which train stops at Chorley?"). There is a lack of staff on the platforms (often there is not a single staff member to be seen on platforms 4, 5, or 6 unless there is a train in the platform), and those staff there are, with a few honourable exceptions, don't know enough to provide meaningful assitance to passengers. At least once or twice a week, I have to step in to help other passengers work out how to complete their journeys when something has gone awry. Often this is after they've approached a staff member who has either said they don't know or, worse, given an answer which is flat out incorrect.

Environment
Platforms 3 - 6 are just nasty places to be. Always dark, and often cold and windy, there's a lack of shelter, and a lack of somewhere vaguely habitable for passengers to wait. There's also a woeful lack of seating for passengers who often have to wait quite a long time for their trains, because of delays and cancellations.

Seemingly illogical decision making
The best example of this is platform allocations. I know that, if I get the train home from Victoria, it could go from any one of the through platforms. I also know that the assigned platform could change at the last minute. Fortunately, I am physically able to leg it between platforms if I need to. Often, though, I just wait on platform three until I can see on Traksy where I need to be, to save myself the hassle. Other passengers aren't able to do that - for loads of reasons.

Bad advice
Standing on the platforms, I keep hearing passengers complaining that different staff have sent them to different platforms and all they want is to know where they need to go to get to their destination. It's not, bluntly, rocket science.

I'm a pretty easy going person and it takes a lot to annoy me, but I have every sympathy for these passengers who are sent from pillar to post based on bad advice, can't access the information they need, and are trying to deal with all of this in a crowded, unpleasent, noisy and possibly unfamilar environment. There's no excuse for the abuse of staff members (or anyone else for that matter!) but really, it was only a matter of time because Northern, TPE, Network Rail and others simply aren't doing enough to help passengers get where they need to be. Victoria is bad enough for passengers when everything is running perfectly - with a timetable change, disruption, and Christmas madness all happening as well, it's not difficult to see how tempers become inflamed.

 

[Class195]

Maybe what we've seen tonight is a sign that northern staff themselves are at breaking point, as well as the timetable and the rostering.

It’s clear from the conductor giving people free travel on my train after waiting out on the freezing cold for over 90 minutes that things have already broken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think TPE, Network Rail and Northern Rail management needs to visit Victoria and sit down with the staff to get to the bottom of this.

I think TPE, Northern and Network Rail need to sit down together and plan a timetable that can be operated under the constraints they have. That's all that is needed. Make the service not awful[1] and the problems will reduce significantly. No need to talk to the staff about it per-se other than apologising for the flak that they have been receiving because of planning ineptitude[2].

[1] Obviously an hourly service when you're used to half hourly is a downgrade, but because people have mobile phones on which they look up train times you're not, after the first day or two, going to have queues of angry people asking why the service has been cut, they'll just show up when there is a train.

[2] Probably of bidders and managers in demanding an unrealistic timetable, not the diagrammers themselves, to be fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or the railway is? Broken down 331 at Man Pic plus points failure on the Calder Valley means Manchester pretty much shuts down.

We're crying out for investment and not just high speed. Staff at all levels feel it.

But even if you chuck a billion quid or ten at it, electrify the entire network, double the train lengths, double the complement of drivers and guards, and build all the growth projects proposed and more, it's going to take 5-10 years to deliver it all - it's very much jam tomorrow.

We still need to solve the problem now. And the fix for that is a significant frequency cut with longer trains where not already maxed out and simplified diagramming and routes.

 

[sheff1]

Why should staff have to put up with being shouted at

I don't know about Victoria, but staff at Piccadilly seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to shout at passengers all day long. They shouldn't be surprised if some decide to shout back even though two wrongs don't make a right.

And before someone comes along to say staff need to shout all the time, last week at Piccadilly P13 a very calm member of staff was advising people to move down the platform because the train would stop down there (pointing) and they would be better able to board if they moved down. He also calmly dealt with a rather inebriated group who struggled to understand where they should go.

 

[Andyh82]

Whenever I pass through Victoria, and most of that is off peak, it always seems to be one step away from chaos. The through platforms aren’t that far away from being as bad as Platforms 13 & 14 at Piccadilly, but with the added issue that they are enclosed, often have noisy diesels idling and with 4 Platforms, there are frequent Platform alterations.

Victoria gives the impression of being a small secondary station, attempting to be a big station on a par with Piccadilly. For example the main bank of departure boards has what? 6 screens? Why not a big bank of about 12?. Where are the airside toilets, where are the facilities? It’s got much worse since TPE started using the station as now long distance passengers are regularly dumped there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Victoria gives the impression of being a small secondary station, attempting to be a big station on a par with Piccadilly. For example the main bank of departure boards has what? 6 screens? Why not a big bank of about 12?. Where are the airside toilets, where are the facilities? It’s got much worse since TPE started using the station as now long distance passengers are regularly dumped there.

The barriers are a key part of the issue - the station was not in its present form designed for them, and they eat what would otherwise be a large circulation area that could have larger screens installed in it.

The new Arena bridge (built to move the Arena entrance outside of said barriers) is another blot on the interior.

 

[Llama]

Many times I walk down the platform in uniform at Victoria I find myself giving advice to passengers who seem to already have been given some travel advice but either don't trust it or don't understand it. It saddens me to say that some of the gateline staff on the ticket barriers quite often give duff advice, usually platform information, based seemingly on what they can remember off the top of their heads. It then falls to the dispatchers or traincrew to mop up.

 

[Geeves]

The barriers, the arena, and the arena bridge are not going anywhere.

Its not just one night of abuse towards the station staff its every single night, and when you are there for 9 hours straight with passengers in your face demanding to know why X is cancelled you can imagine why for the first time they finally walked off the job. Whats worse for them is the customer information screens are not working properly either, the 195s are a constant joke, the timetable is a joke. There are no staff. Its been 8 months of this crap. Its 30 odd trains an hour through a station designed for half that.

The first cancelled trains start at 5am and continue through the day until 1am

It doesn't matter if the assault was physical or verbal as has been said, if you went to your work environment and had someone come up to your desk and swear in your face telling you that you are going to get your head smashed in or your neck broke after 8 months straight you would walk out too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The barriers, the arena, and the arena bridge are not going anywhere.

The barriers could be opened when this sort of thing happens even if they were not removed. You tend to find that when Euston goes to hell in a handcart the barriers are left open there, though this is mainly to ease people moving around the station.

Asking people if they have paid when the service delivered is not worth even half of what has been paid (and in any case, pretty much everyone with a valid ticket is going to get a 100% Delay Repay refund anyhow - so whether they buy a ticket or not Northern are still going to basically be getting no income that evening) is just not a sensible thing to do and is just a source of more conflict.

 

[Jozhua]

The barriers could be opened when this sort of thing happens even if they were not removed. You tend to find that when Euston goes to hell in a handcart the barriers are left open there, though this is mainly to ease people moving around the station.

Actually, that could help as there are virtually no station facilities (including toilets) behind the barriers. When delays and cancellations occur you can feel a bit trapped.

I do have to say though, whenever I have asked staff at the barriers to let me through for the toilet or to nip to Greggs upon displaying a valid ticket, they have been fine!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do have to say though, whenever I have asked staff at the barriers to let me through for the toilet or to nip to Greggs upon displaying a valid ticket, they have been fine!

You are entitled to use station facilities, but really doing revenue when the service has collapsed is just a way of inviting conflict over revenue they're only going to have to pay back out again in Delay Repay. Similarly guards coming through asking people to pay for something not worth paying for is just asking for them to get a gobful, and RPIs would be best advised to go sit in the messroom and drink tea.

Some organisations realise this. I was up in Harrogate the other week taking the 36 to Leeds (and if there's anything about bus companies that Alex Hornby has had anything to do with, they know how to deal with passengers). The service was up the wall due to road issues. When a bus eventually arrived, the bus station staff just told everyone to get on and not worry about paying or passes. This gave a good impression - people were not asked to pay for something that on the face of it wasn't worth paying for (and the bus got away quicker).

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Let's not forget that railway staff shout at paying customers daily at Manchester Piccadilly P13/4.

You mean the red line gestapo... waste of time..if they are deemed necessary should be at all busy stations...what are their legal powers...yellow line I get but red ??!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean the red line gestapo... waste of time..if they are deemed necessary should be at all busy stations...what are their legal powers...yellow line I get but red ??!!!

The red line thing is silly and doesn't work. They should just move the yellow line back a bit.

 

[Geeves]

I am sure there is a day dreaming thread you can post on Bletchleyite, the barriers wont be getting opened or removed any time soon. The most congested (and dangerous) part of the station is actually over on 4,5 and 6. Thats where the majority of altercations and calls for the BTP to attend to are usually sent too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure there is a day dreaming thread you can post on Bletchleyite, the barriers wont be getting opened or removed any time soon

It's not daydreaming to suggest opening the barriers when bad situations develop (which is why I haven't taken it to Speculative Ideas). It's explaining what other major stations do when there is severe disruption to ease peoples' movements around the station and to remove points of conflict that create the potential for anger and therefore staff assault.

You might even find that without the need to pass the barrier people don't necessarily hang around on the platforms. As things are, you pass it so it can't delay you later, and then there's nowt to do "airside" but go stand on the platform.

 

[Starmill]

You’re everything that’s wrong with this country nowadays

Charming?

Presumably, if you were in charge, it would be nirvana.

 

[Starmill]

Some organisations realise this. I was up in Harrogate the other week taking the 36 to Leeds (and if there's anything about bus companies that Alex Hornby has had anything to do with, they know how to deal with passengers). The service was up the wall due to road issues. When a bus eventually arrived, the bus station staff just told everyone to get on and not worry about paying or passes. This gave a good impression - people were not asked to pay for something that on the face of it wasn't worth paying for (and the bus got away quicker).

I think the railway industry is close to incapable of adopting this attitude.

 

[Spartacus]

There seems to be a lot of conjecture as to what exactly happened but it appears to have been words rather than an assault.

The thing is that with a number of platforms and other areas at Victoria, just because someone has heard a few sharp words on one platform before then walk out does not not mean that was the reason for the walkout.

Anyway, the main reason wasn't the assault, verbal or physical, it was the BTP declining to attend to an assault on a member of staff.

 

[ajdunlop]

The problem at Victoria is not the barriers, the nature of the last minute service changes, platform swaps, unit swaps, A and B end use, etc means that if you aren’t are already on the platforms your too late. The problem is platform 3-6 (less so 3).
The only use opening the barriers at times of disruption might be to free up more staff to help passengers like what they do very well at Huddersfield. But the gate line staff would need to be trained to do this.

The only thing that could make Victoria better (assuming the arena isn’t going anywhere) is to make the service reliable. Sorting out the current staffing issues then getting the Liverpool and Preston terminators out of the station, either by electrifying to Stalybridge so they can go there or to some sidings beyond the station.

 

[Camden]

I think that the word "assault" should be dropped here. No one is alleging that any longer, not even the union is saying that happened.

Verbally abused? Maybe. "Verbally abused" in the same sense that wouldn't risk an ordinary member of the public getting accused of wasting police time if was they who called the cops about it? If only we could feel certain of that. We should be able to feel certain of that.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I think that the word "assault" should be dropped here. No one is alleging that any longer, not even the union is saying that happened.

Verbally abused? Maybe. "Verbally abused" in the same sense that wouldn't risk an ordinary member of the public getting accused of wasting police time if was they who called the cops about it? If only we could feel certain of that. We should be able to feel certain of that.

Verbal abuse is classed as assault on the railway, and it can depend upon the severity. I was once called a "dirty queer" amongst other unpleasant names and said chap was met in by BTP, put up against a wall and arrested, charged, and prosecuted in court less than 4 weeks later.

Just because something is verbal doesn't mean it won't affect staff and their safe ability to work.

 

[yorksrob]

With the wonder of hindsight, the 1992 rebuild was undoubtedly a bad idea.