SWR Longest Strike - December 2019

[kristiang85]

Steve Hedley, the Senior Assistant General Secretary of RMT, really isn't doing himself - or his cause - any favours on Twitter with this completely out of touch comment:

Steve Hedley
@SteveHedley3
Replying to
@SteveBreave
@Tom85399881
and 6 others
Well I don’t want to spoil you winding yourself up into a rage but we advise people not to use the train on strike days .

https://twitter.com/SteveHedley3/status/1207996805209894913

It seems even some of their own members are getting fed up with this kind of stuff too; but sadly I can see no end to this in 2020.

 

[Goldfish62]

Steve Hedley, the Senior Assistant General Secretary of RMT, really isn't doing himself - or his cause - any favours on Twitter with this completely out of touch comment:



It seems even some of their own members are getting fed up with this kind of stuff too; but sadly I can see no end to this in 2020.

Not known as Headcase Headley for nothing.

 

[Top Cat]

The 0510 from Exeter was cancelled as far as Salisbury, but it's ok as the next train was in FOUR hours! Stagecoach appear to be running some/all of the strike buses in Exeter this time (first Kernow did last time) which, given they have been struggling with driver availability for weeks in Exeter, with numerous cancellations, doesn't bode well for our local bus service.

This was actually due to no driver, there was a guard at Exeter ready to work this service

 

[DennisM]

This was actually due to no driver, there was a guard at Exeter ready to work this service

An own goal by SWR then, much more embarrassing than if there had been no guard available due to the strikes. If they don’t have a spare driver available while running such a reduced service it speaks volumes regarding their planning.

 

[pompeyfan]

I see Steve Headley is doing his best to upset as many passengers and alienate those crossing picket lines over on Twitter. Absolute clown.

Check out the following twitter exchange

https://twitter.com/anonswr/status/1208155042768965632?s=21

 

[Goldfish62]

I see Steve Headley is doing his best to upset as many passengers and alienate those crossing picket lines over on Twitter. Absolute clown.

Check out the following twitter exchange

https://twitter.com/anonswr/status/1208155042768965632?s=21

Not a clown, actually (allegedly) a nasty bit of work. Look at the venom with which he's turned on one of members on twitter.

 

[pompeyfan]

Not a clown, actually (allegedly) a nasty bit of work. Look at the venom with which he's turned on one of members on twitter.

indeed, plenty of personal attacks on people that don’t agree with him, and calls everyone else a troll

 

[Stigy]

Not a clown, actually (allegedly) a nasty bit of work. Look at the venom with which he's turned on one of members on twitter.

Nothing unusual of a bully. A lot of ‘passionate’ Union types are nothing more than bullies.

 

[Economist]

The RMT need to be careful here, I think the government is attempting to draw them out into open battle i.e. strikes up and down the country. The government however, has the right through passing legislation, to set the rules of engagement for such battles so they can't lose. It's pretty much what Thatcher's lot did with the miners in the '80's.

The unions would be much better off adopting a Fabian strategy of avoiding open pitched battles and instead only taking action where the government can't legislate.

The government can't legislate to force staff to work rest days, or force instructors to keep their instructor tickets, or legislate against defective trains being taken out of service. All three of those positions are much easier to defend against the charge of inconveniencing the public.

If a TOC doesn't have enough staff, can't recruit instructional staff and can't maintain trains properly, that's not the union's fault, is it?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The dispute even made it onto Sky Sports today with a joke from Jeff Stelling about SWR guards not wanting to share their advent calendars as they wanted to open all the doors themselves.

Whilst a joke it does seemingly highlight the no win situation there is for anyone with the dispute as it currently stands along with a complete lack of patience from the general public for it.

 

[Ethano92]

The dispute even made it onto Sky Sports today with a joke from Jeff Stelling about SWR guards not wanting to share their advent calendars as they wanted to open all the doors themselves.

Whilst a joke it does seemingly highlight the no win situation there is for anyone with the dispute as it currently stands along with a complete lack of patience from the general public for it.

Indeed, considering the trains have been known to want to make use of ABDO (assisted/automatic braking and door opening) in the long term, the dispute is now essentially completely about the door close/ dispatch procedure. With RMT strong on their stance of wanting the guard to be involved with this and SWR strong on their stance for the driver to do this in a bid to help dwell times, the dispute isn't going anywhere. 2 outcomes I suppose although I'm happy to stand corrected if I've misunderstood the logistics of these.

1) SWR have no choice but to give into RMTs demands (what would be the motive for SWR to do this if they will continue to get compensated by government)

2) SWR train drivers on having complete door control as part of traction knowlegkn for the 701s.(if the drivers/ ASLEF accept it) and as that happens there be continuous strikes by RMT). In reality I understand this likely wouldn't work as SWR would have to 'de-train' the guards down to OBS, I doubt they'd legally be allowed to say 'train to OBS or loose your job and we go from DCO to DOO' to the guards of RMT.

The worst part about this is that it's the passengers who are the most disrupted and that's disgusting. I don't want to bring my own views into it but I certainly do find it disgusting to say the least. Saying that my experiences over this month has been pretty alright, as with all strikes. The contingency guards are much more visible and customer service oriented, just had to wait a little longer for slightly more crowded trains.

 

[pompeyfan]

SWR could give 90 day notice if they really wanted to, but in reality suburban guards will continue to be guards as they’ll still be competent on Desiro stock.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

SWR could give 90 day notice if they really wanted to, but in reality suburban guards will continue to be guards as they’ll still be competent on Desiro stock.

That largely depends where SWR starts to keep 450s in operation in the suburban area. In much the same way as mainline depots don’t sign 455s it might be chosen to have the opposite for 450s.

 

[Flange Squeal]

the dispute is now essentially completely about the door close/ dispatch procedure.

And that makes perfect sense. If the guard has a role to play in door operation then they can’t be get rid of. If the guard doesn’t have a role in door operation then the train can run without them.

I understand this likely wouldn't work as SWR would have to 'de-train' the guards down to OBS, I doubt they'd legally be allowed to say 'train to OBS or loose your job and we go from DCO to DOO' to the guards of RMT.

You mean exactly what happened to Southern’s conductors?

 

[Meerkat]

The RMT do need to be careful.
All out striking would probably lead to a mass imposed DOO - if there is massive disruption anyway then get it all done at once. They are probably lucky the train builders haven’t got all those new trains anywhere near ready.....

 

[Ethano92]

That largely depends where SWR starts to keep 450s in operation in the suburban area. In much the same way as mainline depots don’t sign 455s it might be chosen to have the opposite for 450s.

I think it's now been said 450s will vontinco to operate some of the services on the Reading line so knowledge would have to be retained.

And that makes perfect sense. If the guard has a role to play in door operation then they can’t be get rid of. If the guard doesn’t have a role in door operation then the train can run without them.


You mean exactly what happened to Southern’s conductors, and much the same as what Asda are doing to their staff?

If the train can run without them then so be it.

Wasn't the official agreement between southern and RMT that OBS would be kept, whereas I was referring to it likely not being legal for SWR to simply give up on the second member of staff promise if the guards give them a hard time, whilst SWR try to train them to OBS, and fire them in favour to run DOO. I assume this isn't allowed as RMT would have to be very careful if it was and I'm sure they'd know they have to be by now.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think it's now been said 450s will vontinco to operate some of the services on the Reading line so knowledge would have to be retained.

That doesn’t mean everyone’s knowledge has to be retained, there will always be some mainline knowledge at Waterloo etc but that could be a smaller link.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Wasn't the official agreement between southern and RMT that OBS would be kept, favour to run DOO.

I understand the agreement with ASLEF was that certain services would have an OBS ‘rostered’, but that the train could still run without one under a list of certain circumstances. With ASLEF having the power to near bring the network to a halt with their strikes, but trains still able to run when only the RMT are on strike, once that agreement was made it put the RMT in a much weaker position. That probably explains why not long after the ASLEF deal was made, the ability to run trains all the way to Portsmouth DOO soon followed (previously these services would have REQUIRED a conductor, so straight away DOO was extended as a result).

Therefore, in my opinion, I think that might be part of the reason why RMT want a solid, cast iron guarantee guards will be retained on every train in subsequent disputes, rather than offers of having a guard ‘rostered’ on every train but the train still able to run DOO under a broad list of circumstances. Having their members still required in as much of the door operating procedure as possible therefore helps them with this, as if they hold onto door closing then the train physically can’t run DOO under ANY circumstances. Once an agreement is reached for some trains to run without a guard, I guess there is the potential for the Southern situation described above to be repeated elsewhere.

 

[Robertj21a]

I understand the agreement with ASLEF was that certain services would have an OBS ‘rostered’, but that the train could still run without one under a list of certain circumstances. With ASLEF having the power to near bring the network to a halt with their strikes, but trains still able to run when only the RMT are on strike, once that agreement was made it put the RMT in a much weaker position. That probably explains why not long after the ASLEF deal was made, the ability to run trains all the way to Portsmouth DOO soon followed (previously these services would have REQUIRED a conductor, so straight away DOO was extended as a result).

Therefore, in my opinion, I think that might be part of the reason why RMT want a solid, cast iron guarantee guards will be retained on every train in subsequent disputes, rather than offers of having a guard ‘rostered’ on every train but the train still able to run DOO under a broad list of circumstances. Having their members still required in as much of the door operating procedure as possible therefore helps them with this, as if they hold onto door closing then the train physically can’t run DOO under ANY circumstances. Once an agreement is reached for some trains to run without a guard, I guess there is the potential for the Southern situation described above to be repeated elsewhere.

Better not remind the RMT that Thameslink and Overgound don't have guards at all......

 

[Flange Squeal]

It could well be the ease in which guards disappeared from the likes of London Overground, after TfL’s takeover of the old Silverlink Metro routes, that have contributed to the RMT’s harder line approach now? Obviously if that was repeated on all of the various companies they are/have been in dispute with recently, then that would be a lot of membership subscription money lost! So beyond their obvious duty of trying to defend their members’ interests, it’s also in their personal interest as a Union to fight DOO as hard as possible.

 

[swt_passenger]

It could well be the ease in which guards disappeared from the likes of London Overground, after TfL’s takeover of the old Silverlink Metro routes, that have contributed to the RMT’s harder line approach now? Obviously if that was repeated on all of the various companies they are/have been in dispute with recently, then that would be a lot of membership subscription money lost! So beyond their obvious duty of trying to defend their members’ interests, it’s also in their personal interest as a Union to fight DOO as hard as possible.

Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. Isn’t every other London area inner suburban operation already DOO? But this is repeating a point that’s been made time and again over a number of years...

 

[Flange Squeal]

Isn’t every other London area inner suburban operation already DOO?

I believe so, since the NLL went DOO in late 2013 and GOBLIN in the first half of 2014. I’m not sure on the reasons why the South Western Division’s inner suburban system escaped DOO back in BR days when much of the rest of the suburban network was converted, unless it did just by coincidence happen to be the last one planned and privatisation complicated things or something? Or were a higher proportion of services still worked by slam door trains, as opposed to the likes of other areas with their 319s, Networkers, Turbos etc? Certainly the 455s were built with door controls when new, and various mirrors and monitors were installed at points across the division’s routes (some of which are still in situ today). I guess the history of why the SW division escaped is a subject for another topic though.

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe so, since the NLL went DOO in late 2013 and GOBLIN in the first half of 2014. I’m not sure on the reasons why the South Western Division’s inner suburban system escaped DOO back in BR days when much of the rest of the suburban network was converted, unless it did just by coincidence happen to be the last one planned and privatisation complicated things or something? Or were a higher proportion of services still worked by slam door trains, as opposed to the likes of other areas with their 319s, Networkers, Turbos etc? Certainly the 455s were built with door controls when new, and various mirrors and monitors were installed at points across the division’s routes (some of which are still in situ today). I guess the history of why the SW division escaped is a subject for another topic though.

I don't know know how true it is, but I was told back in the 70s that the SW Division had a reputation for militancy. I seem to remember at the time that everything else was going DOO in the late 80s/early 90s, the South Western was considered problematic. Certainly BR tried at least once, as did Stagecoach. In fact the 458s were specified as DOO trains, hence the desk door controls, lack of intermediate door controls and the driver rather than the guard setting the PIS. In fact I was told that many early problems with the trains were because the TMS couldn't "understand" why someone other than the driver was operating the doors and using the PA.

 

[Carlisle]

I don't know know how true it is, but I was told back in the 70s that the SW Division had a reputation for militancy.

A rumour in the 1980s was that the likes of Waterloo were more militant due to them historically working mainly long distance expresses, no idea if it had any substance or not

 

[pompeyfan]

A thread on Twitter was recently shared by an ex CEO type person of SSWT, basically the business case wasn’t there to try and introduce DOO because the TOC had to take the risk, currently the DfT take the risk under FMTR, hence why they’re pushing for DOO. They went on to say they believe DOO is perfectly safe but OBS method is preferable for passengers.

Personally I believe at least one thread per TOC should be open to allow discussion of DOO and the pros and cons. There’s a few on here such as @Carlisle and @Robertj21a that I don’t agree with but wouldn’t dream of being nasty towards just because we have a difference of opinion. I’m well aware that I’m not going to convince them otherwise, and that they’re not going to turn my opinion, but there still needs to be a channel for people to vent.

 

[Robertj21a]

A thread on Twitter was recently shared by an ex CEO type person of SSWT, basically the business case wasn’t there to try and introduce DOO because the TOC had to take the risk, currently the DfT take the risk under FMTR, hence why they’re pushing for DOO. They went on to say they believe DOO is perfectly safe but OBS method is preferable for passengers.

Personally I believe at least one thread per TOC should be open to allow discussion of DOO and the pros and cons. There’s a few on here such as @Carlisle and @Robertj21a that I don’t agree with but wouldn’t dream of being nasty towards just because we have a difference of opinion. I’m well aware that I’m not going to convince them otherwise, and that they’re not going to turn my opinion, but there still needs to be a channel for people to vent.

Thank you - the feeling is mutual. Although my views on DOO and OBS are well known, I do accept that it is a pointless debate to have on a forum where so many of the members have a vested interest. It's virtually impossible to have any reasoned, objective, dialogue when virtually all such discussions inevitably end up with a debate over Trade Unions (usually the RMT). If anyone wants a sensible, objective, debate on the forum then I'm all for it, but past experience suggests that it will be a waste of time, for all concerned.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I try and stay neutral on this but the one thing I find bizarre during later days of SSWT in the inner area was the promotion that we have a guard on all our trains but in parallel the TfL style of, if you need help please don’t seek it on our trains but get off at the next station to find it. This didn’t really make sense as unlike TfL they had the staffing on trains not at stations!!

 

[theironroad]

I try and stay neutral on this but the one thing I find bizarre during later days of SSWT in the inner area was the promotion that we have a guard on all our trains but in parallel the TfL style of, if you need help please don’t seek it on our trains but get off at the next station to find it. This didn’t really make sense as unlike TfL they had the staffing on trains not at stations!!

I think that was more for passengers who were feeling ill, not needing some general help.

Let's be honest here, the TOC was more interested in the delays being incurred by an ill passenger on a train which was incurring delays rather than the well-being of the individual passenger .

Offloading the passenger(voluntarlity via these messages) meant the train kept moving , hope was someone on the platform (staff or otherwise) would help the afflicted passenger.

Guards are not paramedics and cannot make clinical decisions , so have to act on ambulance call centre advisor advise and if that is not to move the person then the guard's hands are tied.

 

[DelW]

More cr*p from SWR tonight. Last down train on Portsmouth Direct was supposed to be 22:30, the later ones having been cancelled due to Guard's strike. Now the 22:30 has been cancelled too, so Pompey pax told to join 22:40 stopping train to Guildford, where there "should" be a train "or bus" to take passengers onwards. (Quotes are from SWR staff at Waterloo.) The 22:40 is 8 car 455 which is full and standing from CLJ.
I have not much faith that there will be anything at Guildford, and even if there is, I'll be very late home.
How much longer can this abysmal company continue failing its passengers this way and still not be penalised?

 

[Bigfoot]

More cr*p from SWR tonight. Last down train on Portsmouth Direct was supposed to be 22:30, the later ones having been cancelled due to Guard's strike. Now the 22:30 has been cancelled too, so Pompey pax told to join 22:40 stopping train to Guildford, where there "should" be a train "or bus" to take passengers onwards. (Quotes are from SWR staff at Waterloo.) The 22:40 is 8 car 455 which is full and standing from CLJ.
I have not much faith that there will be anything at Guildford, and even if there is, I'll be very late home.
How much longer can this abysmal company continue failing its passengers this way and still not be penalised?

A fire at Portsmouth is of course the companies fault.