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Was the ITSO system ever meant to be rolled out across the entire network?

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Roast Veg

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Over on the Abellio ScotRail thread it was suggested that smart ticketing as a paper ticket replacement for the majority of regular rail users. Has this suggestion ever been formally put forward by the DfT, RDG, or any other official body?

At present we have a variety of identical but incompatible ITSO systems on some, but not all, franchises. What exactly was the motivation for these as opposed to a DfT controlled, centralised system?

Certainly the benefits of integrated ticketing are well known, and Oyster's example in the realms of TfL is a very good one, and other places such as the Leeds metro and TfGM have their own systems.

Even without integration with other transport modes, would reducing paper ticket usage reduce fare evasion, reduce the costs associated with lots of ticket machines at busy stations, encourage more advance purchasing for better fares, open up the possibility of pay-as-you-go fares, and ease environmental concerns? Would those factors justify the expense of fitting scanners at every station? Could we see the use of contactless payments instead, limited to journeys under a set price?

The system in use in the Netherlands, a form of smart ticketing, is very straightforward for those living there but quite alien to outsiders. I don't think there's any doubt that paper tickets are here to stay in the UK for the next few decades at least, and the average occasional passenger would be very slow to adopt any new system.

With fares reform a hot topic at the moment, I'd be very interested in hearing proposals.
 
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HH

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It is DfT policy to replace paper tickets with “Smart” and has been for many years. Every Franchise ITT has requirements and every Franchise Agreement has Commitments. Most (if not all) have been missed. I don’t know the detail, but clearly it’s not so easy as everyone seems to think. I might inquire with my contacts if no-one here can say, because I do know some ticketing experts.
 

js1000

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I don't think phasing out 'paper' tickets is achievable. The government have long wanted it but it's simply an aspiration not realistic. Irregular rail passengers don't hold smartcards, data information concerns, necessary infrastructure upgrades throughout the whole network to ticket machines, barriers, portable ticket machines onboard etc.

Even I personally don't use a 'smartcard' although I could. As I get weekly season tickets, it's easier to see if my ticket has expired whereas smartcards can't display this. Also, the queue to scan them on the revenue inspector's device at the ticket barrier is ridiculous whereas a quick flash of the paper ticket is all that is required.

The government and train companies completely delude themselves into thinking passengers want smartcards but from my perspective it's one of inconvenience rather than a benefit. The move towards smartcards is certainly not helped in any way by different franchises having their own separate branded smartcards rather than a National Rail smartcard.
 
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Roast Veg

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I use weekly tickets on my smart card. The barriers work at both ends of my journey from inside my wallet, without taking out the card holder. Revenue inspectors on the train have to use an app on their smartphones, which can take up to a couple of minutes.
 

hwl

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It is DfT policy to replace paper tickets with “Smart” and has been for many years. Every Franchise ITT has requirements and every Franchise Agreement has Commitments. Most (if not all) have been missed. I don’t know the detail, but clearly it’s not so easy as everyone seems to think. I might inquire with my contacts if no-one here can say, because I do know some ticketing experts.
It isn't easy and completely ignored the multi-TOC/multi-mode issues e.g. GA ITSO option not working with neighboring / overlapping TOCs. DfT just didn't understand that DfT didn't understand the detail.
DfT kept forgetting that almost 2/3rds of total UK rail ticketing (inc tube and light rail systems) touches TfL in some way hence the penny has finally dropped in the last 15months that the TfL backoffice systems (e.g. TfL contactless payment systems/ Oyster) might be far better than ITSO for "NSE Land".
Long distance can be done with print at home /apps given the level of pre-booking covering ~10% of the market leaving ITSO in the post Crossrail fully operational world to cover around 20% of the market (or less if the TfL get the back office issues sorted and DfT goes for the easy option for success.)
 

bobbyrail

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I use weekly tickets on my smart card. The barriers work at both ends of my journey from inside my wallet, without taking out the card holder. Revenue inspectors on the train have to use an app on their smartphones, which can take up to a couple of minutes.

Be careful if you ever travel on the Manchester Metrolink tram system as you might find that your contactless debit card has been accepted as payment for your journey and not your weekly ticket, TFGM even say that you must remove your card from your wallet thus separating it from other sources of charging. Shockingly ****e yes but that's the inferior cheap tech that they are deploying. But so long as the coins roll in TFGM aren't going to too much of a damn.
 

Energy

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Smart cards are good but it is annoying the number of different cards is irritating, lets be honest, they are all basically the same. The best card is Govia's the Key because it is used on every Govia franchise and on most Go Ahead buses. Can these smart cards be used anywhere as they are ITSO? If so then why does each operator need its own brand for it as they would all be exactly the same?
 

HSTEd

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Really they should just have adopted Oyster as a nationwide standard.

As for replacing paper tickets, they should just have replaced them with single use MIFARE style cards, with a deposit of ~50p or so to cover the cost.
The tickets could have temporary printing on the outer surface containing the same information as the paper tickets do.
 

matt_world2004

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Aren't national rail ITSO ticket just the same as paper tickets, in that they have to be brought before hand , with the ITSO component used to open barriers

I can't see why that can't be rolled out across the network they would be more durable than paper tickets, more environmentally friendly and would improve convenance to the customer
 

Brummigrant

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There's just been a big campaign to drive conversion to smart cards. Now, most operators offer smartcards: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/232869.aspx

I think that you can store tickets from other operators, but the main challenge is collecting the tickets. You need to download the ticket to the card chip, which can be done on Android (see Swift collector app on the Google Play Store) and functionality has very recently been released on iOS. Think when you need to tap to confirm your top up at an Oyster machine.

West Midlands Railway's season tickets are on Swift cards (the West Midlands equivalent of Oyster), which are ITSO cards but built on a completely unique framework from Unicard. Everything has to be built separately, which seems absolutely bizarre when you consider all of this is public money so should just be a national framework.

There are pro and cons to these innovations:
A pro: enables competitive innovation between operators
A con: means that people have to understand different ticketing systems throughout the country
A pro: National Rail is run on legacy tech, so the innovation is best done by other people
A con: no standardisation in the way tickets are sorted

The more people diverge from a standard, the harder it will be to pick it all up and put it into a Rejsekort-style ticket system.

Virgin Trains were talking about becoming a ticketing innovator again (it was one of the founders of Trainline when it began), so we'll probably see a boat load more innovation at a time when the Williams Review was alluding to massively simplifying rail fares.

This is before you get into the question on whether smartcard ticketing is the future of mobility around the UK. ;)

Train fares aren't easy and ticketing is even worse, eh. :D
 

Olympian

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Be careful if you ever travel on the Manchester Metrolink tram system as you might find that your contactless debit card has been accepted as payment for your journey and not your weekly ticket, TFGM even say that you must remove your card from your wallet thus separating it from other sources of charging. Shockingly ****e yes but that's the inferior cheap tech that they are deploying. But so long as the coins roll in TFGM aren't going to too much of a damn.
That isn’t down to which equipment they’re using - it’s trying to avoid card clash between ITSO and EMV cards as you can’t otherwise guarantee which card gets used if you are brave enough to present more than one to a reader at the same time.
 

Starmill

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Be careful if you ever travel on the Manchester Metrolink tram system as you might find that your contactless debit card has been accepted as payment for your journey and not your weekly ticket, TFGM even say that you must remove your card from your wallet thus separating it from other sources of charging. Shockingly ****e yes but that's the inferior cheap tech that they are deploying. But so long as the coins roll in TFGM aren't going to too much of a damn.
Er - that's pretty standard? Of course you are required to present only one card at a time.
 

Llanigraham

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Really they should just have adopted Oyster as a nationwide standard.

As for replacing paper tickets, they should just have replaced them with single use MIFARE style cards, with a deposit of ~50p or so to cover the cost.
The tickets could have temporary printing on the outer surface containing the same information as the paper tickets do.

Can you please explain how I would have used either system for a journey from Caersws, an unmanned station on the Cambrian, to London? As far as I can see there is no way of doing so.
 

Llanigraham

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Aren't national rail ITSO ticket just the same as paper tickets, in that they have to be brought before hand , with the ITSO component used to open barriers

I can't see why that can't be rolled out across the network they would be more durable than paper tickets, more environmentally friendly and would improve convenance to the customer

And where do I buy one from when I suddenly decide to travel from an unmanned station?
 
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markymark2000

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The whole point of ITSO was for multi modal travel tickets to be on one smartcard. That isn't happening in 90% of cases. GoAhead's The Key does it but the majority of cards are locked down to certain areas. Even cards within companies are locked down to certain OpCos (Stagecoach Smart cards can not be used between areas. If drivers have a bunch of Merseyside cards, they can not then go to Manchester and issue tickets on them, You can only issue onto Manchester cards if you are on a Manchester ticket machine and the card was issued by Manchester).

It's all a laugh really. We do need a proper national smartcard for multi modal travel. Perhaps this would break another barrier for people using the bus or tram to the train station.
 

Brummigrant

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The whole point of ITSO was for multi modal travel tickets to be on one smartcard. That isn't happening in 90% of cases. GoAhead's The Key does it but the majority of cards are locked down to certain areas. Even cards within companies are locked down to certain OpCos (Stagecoach Smart cards can not be used between areas. If drivers have a bunch of Merseyside cards, they can not then go to Manchester and issue tickets on them, You can only issue onto Manchester cards if you are on a Manchester ticket machine and the card was issued by Manchester).

It's all a laugh really. We do need a proper national smartcard for multi modal travel. Perhaps this would break another barrier for people using the bus or tram to the train station.

There's an argument that a smartcard is also a barrier as you need to acquire one. Perhaps using a bank card or biometrics is better.
 

markymark2000

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There's an argument that a smartcard is also a barrier as you need to acquire one. Perhaps using a bank card or biometrics is better.
Most of the time the smartcards are giving out there and then on the bus or at the station so I wouldn't call it a barrier. Bank cards are good but our fare systems are too complex I think for it.
 

Brummigrant

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Most of the time the smartcards are giving out there and then on the bus or at the station so I wouldn't call it a barrier. Bank cards are good but our fare systems are too complex I think for it.

They work well in city regions, but I agree long-distance fares are too complex.

I made a post earlier which is caught in a moderation queue, but hopefully it will get approved soon as it provided some insight.
 

Olympian

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The whole point of ITSO was for multi modal travel tickets to be on one smartcard. That isn't happening in 90% of cases. GoAhead's The Key does it but the majority of cards are locked down to certain areas. Even cards within companies are locked down to certain OpCos (Stagecoach Smart cards can not be used between areas. If drivers have a bunch of Merseyside cards, they can not then go to Manchester and issue tickets on them, You can only issue onto Manchester cards if you are on a Manchester ticket machine and the card was issued by Manchester).

It's all a laugh really. We do need a proper national smartcard for multi modal travel. Perhaps this would break another barrier for people using the bus or tram to the train station.
ITSO is an interoperable standard and any product can in theory be added to any card (that has sufficient free space). The restrictions described above aren't due to the cards themselves being locked down in any way but instead due to local scheme requirements that have been programmed into ticket machines to restrict which tickets can be added to which cards. Mostly this is an attempt to only have local products added to local cards to make customer services easier as passengers will ring the number printed on the card for any queries. It also allows cards to be registered so they can be blocked and replaced if lost or stolen as each card is "owned" by the issuing scheme and only they can hotlist and block it.

But for someone turning up in say Liverpool and wanting to buy a low value Saveaway day ticket then it makes no sense whatsoever to prevent them being able to add it to any ITSO card that they bring with them from somewhere else in the UK and instead force them to buy a local Walrus card or have to revert to buying a non-smart ticket from a rail station.
 

markymark2000

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ITSO is an interoperable standard and any product can in theory be added to any card (that has sufficient free space). The restrictions described above aren't due to the cards themselves being locked down in any way but instead due to local scheme requirements that have been programmed into ticket machines to restrict which tickets can be added to which cards. Mostly this is an attempt to only have local products added to local cards to make customer services easier as passengers will ring the number printed on the card for any queries. It also allows cards to be registered so they can be blocked and replaced if lost or stolen as each card is "owned" by the issuing scheme and only they can hotlist and block it.

But for someone turning up in say Liverpool and wanting to buy a low value Saveaway day ticket then it makes no sense whatsoever to prevent them being able to add it to any ITSO card that they bring with them from somewhere else in the UK and instead force them to buy a local Walrus card or have to revert to buying a non-smart ticket from a rail station.
Stagecoach though have a dedicated national smartcard scheme but even them cards can't be used other than where they were issued.

I agree on the Walrus point but that is what is going on because everyone wants the control of the cards. IF we had a proper national ITSO card then you could still register and get it hotlisted and everything, it just happens on a larger scale. LAs and bus operators download the hotlisted card details every week for example and that then works in the same way as hotlisting a concessionary pass. It is stuff which can be done but LAs and City regions are too power mad to give away the control of the cards so they can be used nationally.
 

Randomer

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It's all a laugh really. We do need a proper national smartcard for multi modal travel. Perhaps this would break another barrier for people using the bus or tram to the train station.

OV-chipkaart anyone? Although I can't see it working in the UK without major fares reform and off peak price increases to match. I can imagine the uproar if everybody who didn't have one had to pay a pound for a single use one instead of a paper ticket for free.

Although that boat seems to have sailed now mobile ticketing is becoming more common. I do wonder if the best idea in the long run would have been to wait and see what countries that have introduced national smart cards intend to do next. Haven't SBB, Swiss Federal Railways, been experimenting with an app that tracks the phones location and then charges the appropriate fare for the route used?
 

jagardner1984

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I am astonished the waste of paper ticketing and multiple plastic cards isn't more of a story on environmental grounds.

I am astonished that new DfT havent insisted on inter-operability between smart card products (which would inevitably lead to one national scheme).

I am astonished the back office systems arent linked, and that the waste that must bring of everyone paying their own separate smart card contractors.

I am astonished how frankly crap some of the smart card products/systems are - here in Scotrail land, the obvious thing of buying your ticket via app on way to the station to beat the queues isn't possible because you have to buy x hours in advance and then go to a ticket machine to load the product onto your card. Other ticket products which they simply do not sell for Smartcard. Mobile ticket machines which can happily spool half a tree at you, but are incapable of reading or writing to their own smart cards.

All in all Smartcards are a fundamentally brilliant, time saving, environmentally friendly idea. Much of the execution is like an IT project being organised by a substandard team on The Apprentice.

But then, there is a lot about fragmented railways which astonishes me.
 

w1bbl3

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The problem with ITSO is project started from the wrong point that of the ticket being loaded and stored on the card/token replicating the functionality of paper tickets, which is understandable considering connectivity and cost thereof when the project started.
So whilst in theory a ITSO card could and should work everywhere ITSO cards are accepted. The very nature of the ticket being stored on the card without the need for backend "live" validation means that unless all the transport operators integrate their ticketing systems and load all possible valid combinations into each barrier / reader / gate, each card will be limited to only the issuers acceptance area, where the operator can realistically load just their validity data.

TfL with Oyster have and had conceptually gone down the same route for Oyster, but with the introduction of contactless moved to a backend account based validation approach, a low value initial transaction on presenting the card validates that the card hasn't been blocked. The account based approach requires either live backend validation at the risk of time delay whilst the servers are queried or an acceptance of risk that payment may not ultimately be made and reconciliation type validation overnight. TfL and TfGM do the later at stations, portable readers for revenue protection really just note the contactless card details so that when reconciliation happens later the daily fare cap can be levied if the card hadn't touched in / out.

Long term I can't really see the future in separate "smart" cards the functionality will either move to mobile apps or contactless bank cards, with backend validation there is no reason why pre-purchased tickets couldn't be stored centrally for journeys beyond any defined payg limit. DfT will realistically need to coordinate the development of a national reconciliation system to make viable and it would need to be DfT to pick up all the busco's, tram networks, maybe even bike and scooter schemes too. Something to date they haven't been willing to commit to.

It is notable that since introducing contactless TfL have seen a steady decline in the usage of dedicated oyster cards, there will I suspect be a point in the not to distance future when continuing to issue new oyster cards will not be economic.
 

Olympian

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The problem with ITSO is project started from the wrong point that of the ticket being loaded and stored on the card/token replicating the functionality of paper tickets, which is understandable considering connectivity and cost thereof when the project started.
So whilst in theory a ITSO card could and should work everywhere ITSO cards are accepted. The very nature of the ticket being stored on the card without the need for backend "live" validation means that unless all the transport operators integrate their ticketing systems and load all possible valid combinations into each barrier / reader / gate, each card will be limited to only the issuers acceptance area, where the operator can realistically load just their validity data.
That’s already how ITSO is supposed to work - in rules laid down by ITSO - such that every reader should be able to read all ITSO cards irrespective of where they were issued. You obviously still need a valid product on the card for it to be accepted for travel at that location, but being able to read all ITSO cards everywhere isn’t supposed to ever be an issue.

The problem tends to be that many schemes/operators don’t bother to keep their readers fully up to date with all latest card definitions as they’re supposed to and ITSO don’t do anything about enforcing it.
 

pinkmarie80

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I have an EMR smartcard but I’ve not used it in a while.
I buy 5 returns a week (I have a Disabled Railcard so it’s cheaper to do that then buy a season ticket) and for some reason their website doesn’t like that at all. And neither does the smartcard- hidden in the fine print it tells me that despite the ticket being an Off Peak Day Return I can only use it on specific trains that I state I’m getting which I don’t always make. Hence I stopped using it. I would love to be able to just tap my contactless card at the barrier though!
 

jon0844

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Smart cards are good but it is annoying the number of different cards is irritating, lets be honest, they are all basically the same. The best card is Govia's the Key because it is used on every Govia franchise and on most Go Ahead buses. Can these smart cards be used anywhere as they are ITSO? If so then why does each operator need its own brand for it as they would all be exactly the same?

I believe all new ITSO cards will, in addition to the ITSO logo, have a new symbol (red circle with staggered lines) and the plan is to have them work at all locations that accept smartcards.

RDG-ITSO-Logo.png

Interoperability is slowly happening and some cards already work in places where it hasn't formally been announced.

Other plans from the ITSO website talk of taking smartcard ticketing to the mobile, using NFC. This could either allow the phone to hold the ticket, or I've also heard that it can be used to transfer a ticket purchased online to your card without the need go to a TVM/gateline/counter.

There are also apps (Rambus on Play Store) that can read data from your card, potentially showing you what tickets are stored on it.

I've moaned a lot in the past about the absolute shambles, and how RDG/DfT should have implemented this independently of TOCs, but it does seem to be slowly coming together.

Ultimately, you should one day be able to use any ITSO card. TVMs will perhaps one day dispense cards (as TfL machines can do in London) and there are already trials of machines that will issue The Key at some GTR stations so you don't have to order online. Once ticket offices can work with The Key, they will presumably hold stock too.
 

Roast Veg

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It certainly seems as though touch in touch out wouldn't work on the national network unless either the customer was charged very costly single fares (perhaps even the cost of the lowest advance fare that would have been available at the time of boarding?), or the RDG finally gets its way and changes single and return fare pricing to something closer to 50/50.
 

jon0844

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It certainly seems as though touch in touch out wouldn't work on the national network unless either the customer was charged very costly single fares (perhaps even the cost of the lowest advance fare that would have been available at the time of boarding?), or the RDG finally gets its way and changes single and return fare pricing to something closer to 50/50.

I think there will be a combination of PAYG and loading pre-purchased tickets on, for more expensive ones.

How you make that user friendly for the end user I do not know. Even if charging by single fares, there are plenty of fares that will be over £30 (or whatever limit is imposed).

If the limit is later increased, how does the train company ensure it gets paid if the person has insufficient funds? It can pre-authorise an amount in theory, but when petrol stations did this they got slated and now most have gone from pre-authorising £50+ to a nominal amount.

Sure cards can be blacklisted, but I think going forward the most logical solution for the national rail network is pre-purchased tickets. By all means allow multiple tickets to be purchased (ala carnet tickets) to be used as and when required. It does mean having the money 'tied up' in advance though - but that's no different to paper tickets bought in advance.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Looking at everyone's comments, I think possibly an end position has almost been reached. Would everyone - ultimately, and without for the moment thinking about how we get there - be happy with something like

- instead of your ticket, your travel document is your debit/credit card / your bank account on your mobile. If you overspend, your bank can block use and you won't get through the ticket barriers/face existing penalties for ticketless travel.
- for every journey you tap in and out
- all tap in/out points talk to their network centre. The network centre talks to the banks to raise the charge against your bank account. Do we have one network centre or one for each city/TOC/whatever. Not sure, but I think one would work better (see below)
- every journey has an advertised fare. If you tap in and out, that will be what you pay. Capping could be implemented at the network centre (as now with TfL).
- if you want to beat the advertised fare, you can book in advance. Details of your pre-booked ticket will be held against your travel document at the network centre. When you travel and tap in/out, the network centre will charge you against your pre-booked ticket instead of passing the advertised fare on to your bank. TOCs have flexibility to put restrictions on pre-booked ticket, but could (if they wanted) offer essentially all paper tickets available today.
- for on-train ticket inspections, the basic test becomes 'does the passenger have a valid travel document?' If yes, and it has been tapped in, no problem. If yes and not tapped in, then a penalty fare is charged. If no, then this is fare dodging.


I have no doubt that this is more than a little rough round the edges, but is this essentially what we could see if everyone got their act together? Is there anything that is a complete show stopper?

And even if we don't end up with something much like this, is this enough of a proof of concept to show that it's possible to move away entirely from paper tickets?
 

jagardner1984

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In a nutshell yes.

The biggest downside to having a physical smartcard, even if it is one smartcard rather than several, is that it can be lost, it discriminates against tourists arriving from abroad etc.

Contactless is an international standard, the graphics and icons are widely understood, and it would be easy for ticket offices to sell prepaid contactless Visa cards to anyone who for whatever reason can't use a standard credit/debit card. All tapping into existing payment / authentication systems.
 
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