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First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

Goldfish62

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Have they enough o licences for an extra 130 vehicles? Currently operate 170 day to day. How long does that process take? They’ve got around 85 Days to get any extra o licences, 72 days for route registration to be submitted in advance of starting the routes. 85 days to find 130 small vehicles plus spares to cover planned and unplanned maintaince, 200 drivers to find. Depots and outstations to find. Apparently they intend pulling in from other GA groups but have they really got that many buses and drivers sat spare? I foresee a total disaster looming for PCB and CC unless they pull off some kind of miracle!
They've got 310 discs so that's sufficient. However applying for authorised operating centres takes time. Registrations won't be an issue as it's 42 days notice to the TC and the council is hardly likely to sit on them for the full 28 day pre-authorisation period.

Initially, expect lots of buses in different liveries and lots of drivers getting lost.

Personally I still can't work out why it's as many as 130 vehicles.
 
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freetoview33

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IMO i think this could prove to be a disaster for Cornwall Council and Go Ahead. These routes are a long way from Citybus Plymouth depot and will require more outstations for not much profit I would guess . I expect FK to launch commercial services in competition with Go Cornwall on anything that make a profit meaning subsidies will be withdrawn leaving Go Cornwall with loss making services miles off their network. Also perhaps FK could expand into GA East Cornwall territory. If I were Stagecoach I would be looking carefully at Plymouth area as Citybus will no doubt suffer in the city whilst they try and get their Cornwall network up and running.
I'd like to agree!
 

richw

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Personally I still can't work out why it's as many as 130 vehicles.

I’ll try and work out, but it’s increased frequency on many of the subsidised routes. Increased frequency Truro to bude, hourly to St mawes. Several new routes with unknown frequency and PVR
 

Goldfish62

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Go Ahead are pretty good at setting up new operations lately, they’ve done remarkably well in both Manchester and Ireland
Manchester was taking over existing premises, vehicles, staff and routes. The mobilisation period in Ireland (and Singapore) was much longer.
 

Busaholic

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I’ll try and work out, but it’s increased frequency on many of the subsidised routes. Increased frequency Truro to bude, hourly to St mawes. Several new routes with unknown frequency and PVR
Newquay to Redruth could be hourly , but the others? Seems more like 30 than 130 (exaggerated for effect)!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Manchester was taking over existing premises, vehicles, staff and routes. The mobilisation period in Ireland (and Singapore) was much longer.

The Dorset one is perhaps closer with an additional 115 vehicles and having to relocate to a larger depot near Blandford plus new sites in Dorchester, Henstridge etc IIRC, set up under the control of Marc Morgan-Huws and Alex Carter. It didn't go well with about 3 months to put everything together with AC exiting the business

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/n...ouncil-removes-five-bus-services-from-damory/
https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9279169.damory-chief-steps-down-after-school-bus-chaos/

I have to say the new services being touted are rather.....esoteric. I can see perhaps the logic of bolstering existing routes but some of the new ones.... Truro to Newquay Airport? Bodmin to Launceston... is there much trade out of Alternun?? Snozzell to Tregony every two hours..... Seems bizarre.
 

richw

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I have to say the new services being touted are rather.....esoteric. I can see perhaps the logic of bolstering existing routes but some of the new ones.... Truro to Newquay Airport? Bodmin to Launceston... is there much trade out of Alternun?? Snozzell to Tregony every two hours..... Seems bizarre.

hourly to St Mawes is overkill too i would say.
Direct Redruth to Newquay. Can only see that being worthwhile in peak summer.
 

richw

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Talking of Snozzell the town service which carries fresh air every hour, is going to offer a greater frequency for the fresh air to travel about going to Every half an hour! Starts explaining why they need 130 vehicles although I imagine a small hatchback car might be over capacity with some of these frequency increases!
This really isn’t the lucrative deal it’s being spun as.
 

Busaholic

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The Dorset one is perhaps closer with an additional 115 vehicles and having to relocate to a larger depot near Blandford plus new sites in Dorchester, Henstridge etc IIRC, set up under the control of Marc Morgan-Huws and Alex Carter. It didn't go well with about 3 months to put everything together with AC exiting the business

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/n...ouncil-removes-five-bus-services-from-damory/
https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9279169.damory-chief-steps-down-after-school-bus-chaos/

I have to say the new services being touted are rather.....esoteric. I can see perhaps the logic of bolstering existing routes but some of the new ones.... Truro to Newquay Airport? Bodmin to Launceston... is there much trade out of Alternun?? Snozzell to Tregony every two hours..... Seems bizarre.
I hesitate to come back into this seeing as how I was so out of the loop before, but my confusion was basically over what was going to be announced by Cornwall Council. I genuinely believed the announcement was going to incorporate the details of the 4 year pilot funding agreement announced last September by the Chancellor whereby CC were going to receive £23.5 million of govt money to reduce bus fares, with £1 covering most journeys in a town and to nearby places, priority measures, increasing service levels,etc. Now I gather there is to be a separate announcement on this soon, at least regarding fares, but I wonder whether these new subsidised services run by PCB are in fact going to be funded, at least in part, out of the government pot? Are we to believe that they'll still all be going at the same level in seven years time regardless of how they're doing? If 'yes' then that could be a huge waste of public money. How will FK's commercial services be compensated for carrying passengers from Penzance to Marazion, or West Cornwall Hospital to Ludgvan, for £1 per journey, or will it only be the already subsidised journeys that benefit? So far, far more questions than answers.
 

83G/84D

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I think some of the route mentioned are strange. Redruth to Newquay would appeal to me though as currently the journey necessitates going via Truro. Looking at the current FK network map I thought an operator would try a Newquay to Bodmin service. Even if just 2 hourly Monday to Saturday to see if there is a demand for it.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Talking of Snozzell the town service which carries fresh air every hour, is going to offer a greater frequency for the fresh air to travel about going to Every half an hour! Starts explaining why they need 130 vehicles although I imagine a small hatchback car might be over capacity with some of these frequency increases!
This really isn’t the lucrative deal it’s being spun as.

For Go Ahead, the deal might be reasonably lucrative, especially given that you've mentioned that they bid more than First yet potentially have lower driver costs! Appreciate that you say it's no big deal for First but don't know if I share the sentiment. Are you saying that 25% of the business is tendered, but FK say it was losing money?? Not certain I quite believe that. Tendered work isn't generally lucrative but it does soak up overhead etc. Also, if operating Sunday/Evening work, then that should represent bunce - the fixed costs are already paid for so its just the fuel and driver (plus a bit for tyres and maintenance) to pay for. Given the relative lack of competition in West/Mid Cornwall, I'd have expected FK to be able to have secured some decent if unspectacular margins. In terms of Bodmin depot, there won't be that much that is commercial other than the two boards on the 27??

In terms of some of these service improvements, it all seems a bit arbitrary. As you say, Truro to St Mawes is not exactly stunning now (having been run under tender by First, Truronian and WG) so why it needs an hourly frequency....? Same with the St Austell to Tregony - how have Cornwall Council identified the need for that link? Did it previously have a service? Newquay to Redruth is an interesting one - assume it will run via Rejarrah and through Chiverton Cross and Scorrier. That might be one to watch, I guess, but otherwise, I just can't see the CC thought process.

Put it another way, for the money to run the additional Roseland services and the passengers they will generate, how much benefit would you get from adding a Winter Sunday evening service on the Tinners? Or have they plans for that already?
 

Goldfish62

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Are there many/any journeys that CC support on the M6? Winter evening/Sundays?
Currently I believe the first Mon-Fri journey plus all evening and winter Sunday journeys are supported.

They'll need at least one Mousehole size bus so a pool of several for Penwith would be sensible given the nature of the Lamorna, St Erth and Sancreed routes.
 

richw

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For Go Ahead, the deal might be reasonably lucrative, especially given that you've mentioned that they bid more than First yet potentially have lower driver costs! Appreciate that you say it's no big deal for First but don't know if I share the sentiment. Are you saying that 25% of the business is tendered, but FK say it was losing money?? Not certain I quite believe that. Tendered work isn't generally lucrative but it does soak up overhead etc. Also, if operating Sunday/Evening work, then that should represent bunce - the fixed costs are already paid for so its just the fuel and driver (plus a bit for tyres and maintenance) to pay for. Given the relative lack of competition in West/Mid Cornwall, I'd have expected FK to be able to have secured some decent if unspectacular margins. In terms of Bodmin depot, there won't be that much that is commercial other than the two boards on the 27??

In terms of some of these service improvements, it all seems a bit arbitrary. As you say, Truro to St Mawes is not exactly stunning now (having been run under tender by First, Truronian and WG) so why it needs an hourly frequency....? Same with the St Austell to Tregony - how have Cornwall Council identified the need for that link? Did it previously have a service? Newquay to Redruth is an interesting one - assume it will run via Rejarrah and through Chiverton Cross and Scorrier. That might be one to watch, I guess, but otherwise, I just can't see the CC thought process.

Put it another way, for the money to run the additional Roseland services and the passengers they will generate, how much benefit would you get from adding a Winter Sunday evening service on the Tinners? Or have they plans for that already?

bodmin only does 1 27 board.
Is the Redruth Hopleys service a tender? Redruth to Newquay could take in that route extending to Newquay?

The Tinners for example has 4 of the evening journeys non commercial in the week. Those 4 journeys need a PVR of 4!
 
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Goldfish62

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bodmin only does 1 27 board.
Is the Redruth Hopleys service a tender? Redruth to Newquay could take in that route extending to Newquay?
In a recent CBW article on Hopleys it was stated that all their work is tendered.

They were looking at the potential for bidding with brand new buses for their routes. Sadly that will never see the light of day. :(
 

richw

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In a recent CBW article on Hopleys it was stated that all their work is tendered.

They were looking at the potential for bidding with brand new buses for their routes. Sadly that will never see the light of day. :(

they’ve done the 304 for as long as I remember. I would assume the Redruth to Newquay to be a more appealing version of the 315?

I would think their coaches will mean they survive the loss of service routes
 

TheGrandWazoo

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bodmin only does 1 27 board.
Is the Redruth Hopleys service a tender? Redruth to Newquay could take in that route extending to Newquay?

The Tinners for example has 4 of the evening journeys non commercial in the week. Those 4 journeys need a PVR of 4!

Apologies - thought they had a couple. Would be surprised if Bodmin had much else other than tendered and schools work?

In terms of Hopleys, neither the 304 or 315 are noted as being CC supported according to the timetable booklet https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/38472854/public-transport-guide-2019_pages-52-114.pdf so wondered if they were commercial. I mentioned the impact on First Kernow of this award but they do have the bedrock of a good commercial network AND the Truro P&R (as well as Truronian) but going to be tough for Hopleys, and as for Travel Cornwall.....

Currently I believe the first Mon-Fri journey plus all evening and winter Sunday journeys are supported.

They'll need at least one Mousehole size bus so a pool of several for Penwith would be sensible given the nature of the Lamorna, St Erth and Sancreed routes.

Thought that was probably it. It's going to be rather odd for Go Ahead to have some tenders that will, presumably, only operate from Oct to Mar unless they then elect to operate commercially during the summer?
 

Goldfish62

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Apologies - thought they had a couple. Would be surprised if Bodmin had much else other than tendered and schools work?

In terms of Hopleys, neither the 304 or 315 are noted as being CC supported according to the timetable booklet https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/38472854/public-transport-guide-2019_pages-52-114.pdf so wondered if they were commercial. I mentioned the impact on First Kernow of this award but they do have the bedrock of a good commercial network AND the Truro P&R (as well as Truronian) but going to be tough for Hopleys, and as for Travel Cornwall.....



Thought that was probably it. It's going to be rather odd for Go Ahead to have some tenders that will, presumably, only operate from Oct to Mar unless they then elect to operate commercially during the summer?
It's going to be odd to see whole routes changing operator for the evening and on Sundays. Although this is quite common elsewhere it's never been so in Cornwall.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It's going to be odd to see whole routes changing operator for the evening and on Sundays. Although this is quite common elsewhere it's never been so in Cornwall.

It was historically common in the first decade post-dereg but less so these days. I remember my then local bus service in the early 1990s being operated by the main ex NBC operator. They then lost the tender for evening journeys (Mon-Sat) so it was then registered commercially on Thu-Sat so if you travelled after 7pm on a Mon-Wed, return tickets/Explorer/season tickets weren't accepted!!

I can't recall but when First and WG "shared" the 1/501, tickets weren't interavailable?? You'd envisage that CC have pre-empted this issue given their stated commitment in areas such as integrated ticketing.
 

MB162435

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Wonder what Kernow will do with their timetable book, givien that they won't be operating the CC services, will we have to put up with the out of date book from April until the Summer timetable starts in May or will they do another one?

And will Go Cornwall just do pocket books until May and then produce proper timetables from then

Personally, I think they should extend the Summer timetable from April until September, and just list when the Summer only services start like they currently do with the A2-A4, or will only the online timetables change in April?
 

Goldfish62

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It was historically common in the first decade post-dereg but less so these days. I remember my then local bus service in the early 1990s being operated by the main ex NBC operator. They then lost the tender for evening journeys (Mon-Sat) so it was then registered commercially on Thu-Sat so if you travelled after 7pm on a Mon-Wed, return tickets/Explorer/season tickets weren't accepted!!

I can't recall but when First and WG "shared" the 1/501, tickets weren't interavailable?? You'd envisage that CC have pre-empted this issue given their stated commitment in areas such as integrated ticketing.
The only way you could do it on the 1/501 was to buy a Ride Cornwall ticket, which of course was more reasonably priced in those days.
 

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