Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

[Darandio]

it would make sense, i'd say that's one of the reasons they chose 90s that are mostly in EWS livery, bar 1.

I'm fairly certain the decision to choose which locomotives would be used wasn't based on livery.....

 

[Murray J]

i'm not saying that's the only or main reason, but it can't be a coincidence that nearly all of them are in EWS livery.

 

[hexagon789]

it would make sense, i'd say that's one of the reasons they chose 90s that are mostly in EWS livery, bar 1.

Surely it's that they are readily available 110mph, TDM equipped-passenger locos which have both regularly operated with Mk4s and previously on the WCML. Meaning there shouldn't be any issues using them compared to an alternative class.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Knowing how long railway planning timescales are I doubt it. Have they even secured any stock or locos yet?

Who could have predicted that?

It has confirmed it plans to start running then. As we all know TOCs confirming they plan to do things isn't the same as them happening.

And who mocked when it was predicted?

I see that despite ORR approval, the usual RailUK cynicism about open access operations has started already.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

it would make sense, i'd say that's one of the reasons they chose 90s that are mostly in EWS livery, bar 1.

The main one will be that they are already owned by DB and they can avoid leasing charges by using them.
Maybe some of the long line of unused DB 90s at Crewe will move out of the undergrowth that they inhabit now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nuneaton area folk can have a nice day on the beach in Blackpool this summer

Well, they can have a day on the beach. Knowing Blackpool I'd question how nice it would be

 

[Bletchleyite]

The GA 90s were never in the frame for this. It was originally going to be 91s and Mark 4s, but with 110mph paths this has changed to Mark 4s with DB Cargo Class 90s.

Why 90s - cheaper or more reliable perhaps?

 

[Mag_seven]

Why 90s - cheaper or more reliable perhaps?

They have better acceleration than the 91s.

 

[RAPC]

You can get some quite good fares via Manchester, though, which tallies with the higher frequency service having more space. Certainly in 1st.

Indeed. I work in Manchester, so quite often do exactly that and split some time in the office and then onwards to London. Hoping the new service will negate the need to do this, especially around peak times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have better acceleration than the 91s.

Fair enough.

I'm no great Mk4 fan but I might give it a go at some point given that it appears to serve MKC.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting choices, considering all but 1 are in the old EWS livery, or 1 which appears to still be in first ScotRail livery.

I never thought to put livery choice into the tender review criteria. I would have gone for boring traditional stuff like availability and cost..............

 

[DarloRich]

Fair enough.

I'm no great Mk4 fan but I might give it a go at some point given that it appears to serve MKC.

I am a great Mkiv fan and cant wait to see them!

 

[paul1609]

Although Preston is busy, I do wonder if it will be a sufficient 'critical mass' in itself for Alliance to pay its own way? Let's face it, I doubt there'll be *that* much demand from Blackpool.

From my trip to Fleetwood recently there certainly won't be any repeat business from the South-East the whole area is to be blunt a ****hole

 

[Bletchleyite]

From my trip to Fleetwood recently there certainly won't be any repeat business from the South-East the whole area is to be blunt a ****hole

I suspect, like Hull Trains (which also primarily serves a dump) and GC (which serves some nice places and some dumps), that the primary demand will be North West to/from London, not London-North West daytrippers.

If Londoners want a day on a classic beach, they'll just go to London-on-Sea, sorry, Brighton. Much closer.

 

[Aictos]

I am a great Mkiv fan and cant wait to see them!

It be good to see loco hauled services again on the WCML not counting the sleepers but I’m looking forward to it for a different reason.

It gives easy access to the North West from Luton, Leicester, Dunstable, Bedford and more by railheads at MKC, Nuneaton etc.

As a example, Peterborough to Blackpool could be done via Nuneaton instead of via Leeds so I hope the fares will reflect this.

 

[cle]

I suspect, like Hull Trains (which also primarily serves a dump) and GC (which serves some nice places and some dumps), that the primary demand will be North West to/from London, not London-North West daytrippers.

If Londoners want a day on a classic beach, they'll just go to London-on-Sea, sorry, Brighton. Much closer.

Ouch, but you're not wrong.

Londoners don't go up north to visit the seaside. The weather is far worse, food questionable, the main recreational activities are missing, and it's too far. They do Devon and Cornwall overwhelmingly (even though also far), as well as closer spots like Brighton (lash, culture) or Solent/Wight/Dorset (sailing peeps). Some niche surf and kite-surfing spots in South and North Wales, of course.

Plus HS1 and East London/hipster culture have helped boost a lot of the Kent coastal towns and some, like Whistable, are popular 'cool' places to visit closer to London.

 

[Murray J]

I never thought to put livery choice into the tender review criteria. I would have gone for boring traditional stuff like availability and cost..............

I mean those specific locos, not the class 90 in general, which seems to be a fairly logical option, I'm just glad loco-hauled service is resuming on the WCML and with grand Central (yes I know CS exist but that's a sleeper service so doesn't really count.)

 

[DarloRich]

It be good to see loco hauled services again on the WCML not counting the sleepers but I’m looking forward to it for a different reason.

It gives easy access to the North West from Luton, Leicester, Dunstable, Bedford and more by railheads at MKC, Nuneaton etc.

As a example, Peterborough to Blackpool could be done via Nuneaton instead of via Leeds so I hope the fares will reflect this.

All of that already exisits. What you mean is this service may (may not will) be fractionally cheaper

 

[Aictos]

All of that already exisits. What you mean is this service may (may not will) be fractionally cheaper

Actually unless I’ve misread the Advanti services, none of them stop at MKC or Nuneaton and only Preston to Blackpool North do they share the same stopping pattern.

At the moment, someone from Leicester travelling to Blackpool has to change at Nuneaton and Rugby or Nuneaton and Crewe but with Grand Central it’s a simple change at Nuneaton.

I suspect we will see three fares, that being Any Permitted, Avanti West Coast Only plus Connections and Grand Central Only plus Connections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of that already exisits. What you mean is this service may (may not will) be fractionally cheaper

It might well nick some passengers off the increasingly dire LNR Trent Valley services at the budget end if it's cheap enough.

You can already do MKC <-> North West using Avanti, but for stations on the WCML proper for most of the day that involves a change at Crewe or a longer run via Brum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ouch, but you're not wrong.

Londoners don't go up north to visit the seaside. The weather is far worse, food questionable, the main recreational activities are missing, and it's too far. They do Devon and Cornwall overwhelmingly (even though also far), as well as closer spots like Brighton (lash, culture) or Solent/Wight/Dorset (sailing peeps). Some niche surf and kite-surfing spots in South and North Wales, of course.

Plus HS1 and East London/hipster culture have helped boost a lot of the Kent coastal towns and some, like Whistable, are popular 'cool' places to visit closer to London.

Indeed. The main demand for London to the North West is likely to either be to Manchester (work or city break), Liverpool (city break) or the Lake District for a weekend. That or people from the North West who work in London popping back on a weekend.

 

[Aictos]

It might well nick some passengers off the increasingly dire LNR Trent Valley services at the budget end if it's cheap enough.

You can already do MKC <-> North West using Avanti, but for stations on the WCML proper for most of the day that involves a change at Crewe or a longer run via Brum.

But I’m referring to passengers who need to use stations on the WCML to connect for services to Blackpool eg Leicester, Luton, Bedford etc...

Leicester can change at Nuneaton
Luton and Bedford can change at MKC

It’s those passengers who they’re trying to get, the ones who at the moment face minimum 2 changes just to go to the seaside whereas once those services start it’s just one change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s those passengers who they’re trying to get, the ones who at the moment face minimum 2 changes just to go to the seaside whereas once those services start it’s just one change.

If I lived in any of those places I'd be headed for Brighton using Thameslink, or for somewhere in East Anglia by car. Not the godforesaken rathole that is Blackpool.

 

[Aictos]

If I lived in any of those places I'd be headed for Brighton using Thameslink, or for somewhere in East Anglia by car. Not the godforesaken rathole that is Blackpool.

There are nicer places then Brighton though, as to Blackpool being a hellhole well Bletchley springs to mine.

 

[Bertie the bus]

But I’m referring to passengers who need to use stations on the WCML to connect for services to Blackpool eg Leicester, Luton, Bedford etc...

Leicester can change at Nuneaton
Luton and Bedford can change at MKC

It’s those passengers who they’re trying to get, the ones who at the moment face minimum 2 changes just to go to the seaside whereas once those services start it’s just one change.

I would say they are not trying to attract passengers from anywhere who want to go to Blackpool. They have almost certainly chosen Blackpool as a destination because they thought if they did, with its very poor service to London at the time of their application, they would have a decent chance of it being approved. It is the London – Milton Keynes and London – Preston markets they are interested in.

 

[Taunton]

It’s those passengers who they’re trying to get, the ones who at the moment face minimum 2 changes just to go to the seaside whereas once those services start it’s just one change.

Like other Open Access operators, the run from London to Blackpool is just a front. What is really of interest, and makes the financial case, is an Orcats Raid on the established flows from stations like Preston on the existing main line they are allowed to serve (hopefully as many as possible), and scoop up current revenue streams.

Likewise their website has the fact that they are part of Arriva/DB in the tiniest font at the foot of the page. They seem to be keeping their relationship with Northern very quiet.

 

[stut]

It might well nick some passengers off the increasingly dire LNR Trent Valley services at the budget end if it's cheap enough.

You can already do MKC <-> North West using Avanti, but for stations on the WCML proper for most of the day that involves a change at Crewe or a longer run via Brum.

My thoughts exactly. A reasonably priced, fast run from MK up to Preston would suit me just nicely.

 

[Darandio]

Likewise their website has the fact that they are part of Arriva/DB in the tiniest font at the foot of the page. They seem to be keeping their relationship with Northern very quiet.

It isn't really there headline website though, this is. https://www.grandcentralrail.com/

 

[Clip]

If I lived in any of those places I'd be headed for Brighton using Thameslink, or for somewhere in East Anglia by car. Not the godforesaken rathole that is Blackpool.

Thats a bit harsh Neil - When was the last time you were to qualify this statement?

 

[pt_mad]

My thoughts exactly. A reasonably priced, fast run from MK up to Preston would suit me just nicely.

Exactly.

In the hour when the Edinburgh service calls at Milton Keynes rather than the Glasgow (via West Mids), it may well be faster for Glasgow to take Grand Central and change at Preston than it would be taking Avanti. Depending what time in the hour the passenger arrives at Milton Keynes of course. And providing the ticket is any permitted or Grand Central plus connections.