RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

[Silverlinky]

Deal approved


RMT transport union members at West Midlands Trains have scored a victory over bosses in a dispute over scrapping guards on trains. After only three days of solid strike action before Christmas, management buckled and agreed to preserve the guards' role with responsibility for opening train doors being transferred to drivers.

With no changes to pay and conditions attached, the offer was accepted by a a nearly two to one majority. While many guards were prepared to fight on in defence of their role and to prevent any loss in responsibilities this is without doubt a victory as the company had originally intended to completely strip away the guards' safety responsibilities.

The growing numbers of drivers refusing to cross the guards' picket lines played an important part in forcing the company to capitulate so early.

However with West Midlands Trains' parent company now under fire for its appalling service performance it might not be long until battle lines are redrawn as a new franchise holder decides to attack staff in the pursuit of shareholder profits.

Tom Woodcock, RMT member

https://m.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/30085/08-01-2020/west-midlands-rmt-guards-jobs-saved

wow, right back to 1974 with that one!! Managers buckling, solid action,company capitulating, shareholder profits.....without a doubt a victory indeed!

 

[SlimJim1694]

Looks to me like the guards have lost opening the doors and gained nothing. It's like losing a football match but saying you won because you had more possession. That was a link from the socialist party website anyway so I wouldn't take it seriously.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Looks to me like the guards have lost opening the doors and gained nothing. It's like losing a football match but saying you won because you had more possession. That was a link from the socialist party website anyway so I wouldn't take it seriously.

Factual accuracy but you won’t take it seriously because of the website it comes from? How very mature.
They may not have as you put it gained very much but they could have lost a whole lot more. Let us not forget in the entire history of the guard grade guards opening the doors is a comparatively recent phenomenon anyway

 

[The Planner]

Guards not opening doors will actually improve performance slightly, means the process of stopping, getting out on to the platform and then opening the doors gets shortened.

 

[pompeyfan]

Does this mean that their Desiros will be driver open? How would that work as I believe they still use UDS instead of ASDO?

 

[SlimJim1694]

Factual accuracy but you won’t take it seriously because of the website it comes from? How very mature.

No I don't take it seriously coming from one RMT member posting on the Socialist Party website. It is one persons opinion, designed to fit in with the ethos of the Socialist Party, which is a very small fringe political group - one of many on the left. If another RMT member posted something on Tommy Robinson's website about guards would you expect people to take that seriously? I very much doubt it. I prefer to look at the bigger picture, take opinions and facts from all sides and then form my own opinion based on that. If you want to take the opinion of one bloke in the Socialist Party as gospel then good luck to you.

 

[godfreycomplex]

No I don't take it seriously coming from one RMT member posting on the Socialist Party website. It is one persons opinion, designed to fit in with the ethos of the Socialist Party, which is a very small fringe political group - one of many on the left. If another RMT member posted something on Tommy Robinson's website about guards would you expect people to take that seriously? I very much doubt it. I prefer to look at the bigger picture, take opinions and facts from all sides and then form my own opinion based on that. If you want to take the opinion of one bloke in the Socialist Party as gospel then good luck to you.

It’s got accurate details of the deal that was struck, maybe there’s a bit of spin and you can take that in what sense you like but the spine of the article is reporting the factual content of the deal that has been agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does this mean that their Desiros will be driver open? How would that work as I believe they still use UDS instead of ASDO?

I believe they will retrofit ASDO as SWT/SWR have. There are relatively few places where it's needed now anyway.

 

[O L Leigh]

Guards not opening doors will actually improve performance slightly, means the process of stopping, getting out on to the platform and then opening the doors gets shortened.

I doubt it.

The few seconds saved by the guard not having to do a platform check first is not going to amount to much over the course of a journey. Besides, who's to say that the drivers will be any faster on the buttons themselves? Going from the performance of some of the guards I work with I'm not sure that I could get the doors released much quicker, and I used to do full DOO previously.

Frankly I think that this aspect gets overplayed.

 

[387star]

I doubt it.

The few seconds saved by the guard not having to do a platform check first is not going to amount to much over the course of a journey. Besides, who's to say that the drivers will be any faster on the buttons themselves? Going from the performance of some of the guards I work with I'm not sure that I could get the doors released much quicker, and I used to do full DOO previously.

Frankly I think that this aspect gets overplayed.

Some drivers get up to walk over to the offside doora to mitigate risk.after securing the train so yes it can take time and in fact downloads look at the seconds between stopping and opening doors

 

[The Planner]

I doubt it.

The few seconds saved by the guard not having to do a platform check first is not going to amount to much over the course of a journey. Besides, who's to say that the drivers will be any faster on the buttons themselves? Going from the performance of some of the guards I work with I'm not sure that I could get the doors released much quicker, and I used to do full DOO previously.

Frankly I think that this aspect gets overplayed.

Until your dwells go up from 30 seconds to a minute, it makes a difference.

 

[O L Leigh]

Of course. My contention is that having the drivers release the doors is not going to magically transform a late-running service into one that runs to time, because the time saving per stop (if there is any to be had at all) is only going to be a handful of seconds at most. The passenger loading time and the safety checks ahead of closing the doors and giving the Ready-to-Start signal will remain unchanged.

 

[Robertj21a]

I know it's probably just me but trains that are fully DOO always *seem* to be faster stop/dwell/start - not just in the UK but abroad too. All far more businesslike, possibly as it's all down to just one person involved.

 

[pompeyfan]

and yet on the other hand, trains seem to dwell a lot less on platform 9 at Clapham than the equivalent Southern platform? That is purely from observation though and not in anyway a fact with evidence.

 

[adamello]

So a DCO operation with Safety Critical guard on board is deemed a success... pretty much what SWR have committed to provide, but RMT reject that as SWR digging their heels,
whilst it may not set a precedent, if the legality of the industrial action is ever called in to question, then RMT have set their own bar of what is deemed safe.

 

[pompeyfan]

So a DCO operation with Safety Critical guard on board is deemed a success... pretty much what SWR have committed to provide, but RMT reject that as SWR digging their heels,
whilst it may not set a precedent, if the legality of the industrial action is ever called in to question, then RMT have set their own bar of what is deemed safe.

you appear to have misunderstood the deal. This is not DCO at all, this is driver release, guard close. DCO is driver open, driver close with a customer assistant on board (OBS, non door guard etc, TTE)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know it's probably just me but trains that are fully DOO always *seem* to be faster stop/dwell/start - not just in the UK but abroad too. All far more businesslike, possibly as it's all down to just one person involved.

It's noticeable on the WCML that on the Southern services (driver release) the doors release near enough as soon as the wheels stop turning, whereas on LNR it often takes between 10 and 20 seconds while the faffing takes place.

For dispatch, DOO is about 5-10 seconds quicker due to the absence of time spent closing the local door and "buzz buzz <pause> buzz buzz" before starting off.

 

[Carlisle]

I doubt it.

The few seconds saved by the guard not having to do a platform check first is not going to amount to much over the course of a journey. .

I completely agree, driver release alone barely appears to have any worthwhile advantage over simply retaining or refining conventional guard door release methods

 

[Kite159]

What driver release does improve is that the guard can be in the passenger area checking tickets/giving assistance without the worry of having to rush to a door panel to release the doors

 

[Bletchleyite]

What driver release does improve is that the guard can be in the passenger area checking tickets/giving assistance without the worry of having to rush to a door panel to release the doors

Indeed. Less important for LNR mainline, but very very useful on a branch line - I reckon you could cut a fair bit off Marston Vale running times that way.

 

[Carlisle]

Let us not forget in the entire history of the guard grade guards opening the doors is a comparatively recent phenomenon anyway

They’ll have opened doors on the likes of the class 503s from 1938, or even earlier if your including the London Undergrad

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’ll have opened doors on the likes of the class 503s from 1938, or even earlier if your including the London Undergrad

A few will, but sliding door stock was very much in the minority until the building of huge swathes of Mk3 based EMUs in the 1980s (and some PEPs in the 70s). Guards have done dispatch since the railways existed, pretty much, but opening doors are indeed a recent phenomenon for most.