Scottish Independence

[Aictos]

With talk of the future of the UK and Scotland’s role, I thought it best to debate this subject here.

For example, should Scotland become independent then what?

Do they keep the Pound Sterling as currency or do they move to the Euro as currency?

What about funding for public services? How will funding be arranged?

What about both air and rail travel?

In my view, surely the SNP ought to look at its own affairs such as Schools, NHS Scotland, Policing etc before demanding another referendum because the last one didn’t give the result they desired.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Leaving the UK so they are not controlled by London so they can join the EU and be controlled by Brussels. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Failed Unit]

Leaving the UK so they are not controlled by London so they can join the EU and be controlled by Brussels. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Because they are not English The SNP want to paint a picture that all the English want is their oil.

 

[433N]

Leaving the UK so they are not controlled by London so they can join the EU and be controlled by Brussels. Makes a lot of sense to me.

... or you could look at it sensibly and say that the SNP believe that it is economically in Scotland's best interests to do so or that the people of Scotland are more aligned to the values of the EU than they are to those of Westminster. It equally makes no sense to be part of the UK if you believe that union to be controlled by people you have nothing in common with and little regard for (as they haven't for you).

I'm not advocating independence, I just think that the 'not wanting to be controlled by London but wanting to be controlled by Brussels' is (a) wrong ... because no sovereign state is 'controlled' from Brussels and (b) irrelevant.

 

[433N]

Because they are not English The SNP want to paint a picture that all the English want is their oil.

I take it that you didn't read the 600+ case for independence that was produced last time as it contained very little mention of oil ... which was a little strange since Salmond was an oil economist, but there you go.

 

[Failed Unit]

I take it that you didn't read the 600+ case for independence that was produced last time as it contained very little mention of oil ... which was a little strange since Salmond was an oil economist, but there you go.

No. As someone living in Scotland at the time that was English I found the campaign a touch racist, so didn’t even look at the arguments as I couldn’t associate myself with condoning such racism.

be interesting if the vote was uk wide and Scotland voted 45% for independence and the rest of the uk voted 60% for “Scotland to be an independent country” how the SNP would react. They would get what they want but the view that the rest of the UK are just wanting Scotland in the UK to leach their resources would be shattered.

 

[DarloRich]

yeah - why not. it is going to happen sooner or later and the SNP feel they have a mandate now. The world has changed since the last vote, but using the brexit logic the question should be closed for ever and the will of the people respected so they should stay. Forever.

Leaving the UK so they are not controlled by London so they can join the EU and be controlled by Brussels. Makes a lot of sense to me.

sigh. this is tiresome.

 

[Meerkat]

Tiresome maybe, but definitely valid. And as a small nation an independent Scotland would lose even more sovereignty to the EU than the UK does.

 

[DarloRich]

Tiresome maybe, but definitely valid. And as a small nation an independent Scotland would lose even more sovereignty to the EU than the UK does.

hmmmm. they could develop a sensible and mature approach to the EU distinct to the childish approach taken by the UK government and media over the last few decades.

 

[Journeyman]

As an Englishman who lives in Scotland, I have to say I'm getting increasingly tired of the SNP's constant shrill demands for more referenda, and if there is one in the near future, I intend to vote against independence.

The claim that they have an "overwhelming" mandate is nonsense. They got around 43% of the vote in the recent general election, and there's no real evidence that pro-independence opinion has significantly shifted since 2014, but they're happy to take advantage of the flaws of FPTP, which has given them more than 80% of the seats.

If there's another Indyref soon, the result will be incredibly close whichever way it goes - possibly closer than the EU referendum - and all that will happen is that you'll end off with close to half the country extremely pissed off about the outcome.

The SNP seem to be advocating a somewhat harder independence than they were in 2014, with a separate Scottish currency. If the rest of the UK goes ahead with a very hard Brexit, as seems a racing certainty, and Scotland rejoins the EU, it looks to me like there would be a hard border, which would be absolutely devastating economically, especially to people who live on one side of the border and work on the other.

I can understand the emotional appeal of independence, but as a means of dealing with a currently very unpopular government, it's a drastic and permanent step that feels akin to burning your house down because there's a spider in the bath. Practically and economically, it feels suicidal, especially at a time when the future for the whole of the UK is so uncertain. I'm no fan of Brexit, but I accept we are where we are, and we have to go ahead with it now.

Scottish nationalists love to claim that their nationalist sh*t smells nicer than everyone else's, but I've long suspected there's some nasty racism and prejudice behind it, especially where it intersects with Scotland's big sectarian problem, and I've long been wary of anyone who feels a particular need to wrap themselves in a flag.

 

[Failed Unit]

Scottish nationalists love to claim that their nationalist sh*t smells nicer than everyone else's, but I've long suspected there's some nasty racism and prejudice behind it, especially where it intersects with Scotland's big sectarian problem, and I've long been wary of anyone who feels a particular need to wrap themselves in a flag.

I was not the only English person living there the felt that way then. But you are absolutely correct the divisions since 2014 are hard and bitter. Almost as deep as the ones on religious grounds.

it is a no win situation. They will keep demanding referendum’s until they win. Be they next year or 100 years time. Meanwhile the hatred and bitterness it generates goes on. Independence won’t resolve that.

 

[Journeyman]

I was not the only English person living there the felt that way then. But you are absolutely correct the divisions since 2014 are hard and bitter. Almost as deep as the ones on religious grounds.

Scottish nationalism is a religion. My mother-in-law is a really hardcore nationalist who seems to forget that I'm English whenever she speaks to me. She seems to think Westminster government - bad, evil, right-wing, eats babies, kills old people, fights wars, etc. etc. etc. Scottish government - wonder of enlightened progressiveness, all sweetness and light, completely just and fair, always virtuous, never corrupt.

I just avoid the subject now. She seems convinced that because I don't support independence, I must be a Brexit-supporting hardcore Tory - I didn't vote for either of those things!

Most Scottish people don't have a particularly strong opinion one way or the other, and the people that do can be enormously tedious.

it is a no win situation. They will keep demanding referendum’s until they win. Be they next year or 100 years time. Meanwhile the hatred and bitterness it generates goes on. Independence won’t resolve that.

Absolutely. I very rarely agree with the Tories, but the Scottish Secretary is quite rightly refusing to hand over power for holding independence referenda to the Scottish Government. If they did, we'd hold the bloody things every couple of years.

 

[Failed Unit]

Scottish nationalism is a religion. My mother-in-law is a really hardcore nationalist who seems to forget that I'm English whenever she speaks to me. She seems to think Westminster government - bad, evil, right-wing, eats babies, kills old people, fights wars, etc. etc. etc. Scottish government - wonder of enlightened progressiveness, all sweetness and light, completely just and fair, always virtuous, never corrupt.

I just avoid the subject now. She seems convinced that because I don't support independence, I must be a Brexit-supporting hardcore Tory - I didn't vote for either of those things!

Most Scottish people don't have a particularly strong opinion one way or the other, and the people that do can be enormously tedious.



Absolutely. I very rarely agree with the Tories, but the Scottish Secretary is quite rightly refusing to hand over power for holding independence referenda to the Scottish Government. If they did, we'd hold the bloody things every couple of years.

Actually the only time I have ever voted conservative in a general election was 2015. It was really a protest vote as I knew that the MP would not get elected - but really just to prove that not everyone has their extreme views. They seem to forget which party in Scotland has the 2nd largest % of votes.

I also avoid speaking about independence to my family. But they hardly speak to me at all since 2014....

From the Westminster point of view this time around was “what do you want us to amputate? Your arms or your legs?” I voted for neither but still have got something amputated.

 

[Journeyman]

Actually the only time I have ever voted conservative in a general election was 2015. It was really a protest vote as I knew that the MP would not get elected - but really just to prove that not everyone has their extreme views. The seem to forget which party in Scotland has the 2nd largest % of votes.

From the Westminster point of view this time around was “what do you want us to amputate? Your arms or your legs?” I voted for neither but still have got something amputated.

I know what you mean. Being forced to choose between the UK as a whole going through Brexit or Scotland becoming independent and rejoining the EU feels like being forced to choose which eye I'd like to poke out. Ultimately, I just want the UK to remain an EU member, or at the very least stay part of the CU/SM. However, I think Scottish independence is too high a price to pay to remain part of an organisation which is clearly flawed, even though it benefits us and I'd rather we stayed.

 

[edwin_m]

If I was Scottish, looking at the way the Westminster government has messed up with Brexit and their general attitude of contempt towards Scotland, I would certainly be strongly tempted to vote for independence.

However it's totally unclear at present whether the Scots would be better off (or less worse off) staying with England which shows every sign of continuing in the same direction, or being independent but having to re-join the EU and almost certainly accept a hard border. Both options are much less attractive than either of those on offer in 2014.

Therefore I think it's right to hold off voting for at least a couple of years, though the Johnson government is no doubt doing this for entirely the wrong reason.

 

[AlterEgo]

Because they are not English The SNP want to paint a picture that all the English want is their oil.

Scottish nationalism is predicated on anti-Englishness and is as at least as nativist and mean-spirited as the ideology they claim to want to leave behind in England. The Labour Party is complicit by its incompetence and lack of relevance north of the border.

It also won't happen.

 

[Meerkat]

The divisive problem with Brexit and independence are that they are like being pregnant - you either are or you aren’t independent.
Most other political issues are shades - very few extremists want to nationalise or privatise everything and aren’t hugely bothered by the pendulum swinging back and forward a bit. But independence questions make everyone an extremist.

 

[Failed Unit]

If I was Scottish, looking at the way the Westminster government has messed up with Brexit and their general attitude of contempt towards Scotland, I would certainly be strongly tempted to vote for independence.

However it's totally unclear at present whether the Scots would be better off (or less worse off) staying with England which shows every sign of continuing in the same direction, or being independent but having to re-join the EU and almost certainly accept a hard border. Both options are much less attractive than either of those on offer in 2014.

Therefore I think it's right to hold off voting for at least a couple of years, though the Johnson government is no doubt doing this for entirely the wrong reason.

If you look at other important things however Scotland isn’t doing as well as it makes out.

NHS - things are slipping - viewpoint it is better than England. Not something to be proud of. Improve on things not strive to only be better than England.
Education- slipping (apparently worse than England)

these things are never really discussed as although they are devolved it is still the fault of Westminster and the Scottish government can only be held accountable if Scotland was an independent country. (SNPs view)

 

[Journeyman]

I completely agree, we need to hold off another vote until we're much clearer about the consequences of Brexit. Nothing is fundamentally going to change until the end of this year, and we need to have at least some idea of the outcome of trade negotiations before we'll have any idea what impact Brexit will have.

I think "contempt towards Scotland" is the wrong phrase to use, and plays into the hands of the SNP with their grievance politics. Yes, the government has made some monumental cock-ups with the referendum, but the fallout will still exist and will still have to be dealt with whatever way the independence debate goes, and I'm of the opinion that the last thing we need now is the division and chaos that will follow another very close vote on something so divisive.

 

[Journeyman]

Scottish nationalism is predicated on anti-Englishness and is as at least as nativist and mean-spirited as the ideology they claim to want to leave behind in England.

You're absolutely right there. The idea that they represent an enlightened form of "civic nationalism" is absolute nonsense, and a lot of it is based on a sense of grievance that the SNP happily stoke up whenever it suits them.

 

[PeterC]

yeah - why not. it is going to happen sooner or later and the SNP feel they have a mandate now. The world has changed since the last vote, but using the brexit logic the question should be closed for ever and the will of the people respected so they should stay. Forever.



sigh. this is tiresome.

Remember we have had TWO referenda on leaving the EU. By that precident a second Scottish referendum in the light of changed circumstances is valid.

 

[Journeyman]

Remember we have had TWO referenda on leaving the EU. By that precident a second Scottish referendum in the light of changed circumstances is valid.

Yes, but (a) those two referenda were 40 years apart and (b) we still don't even know what those changed circumstances are yet. It's simply far too soon.

 

[DarloRich]

Scottish nationalism is predicated on anti-Englishness and is as at least as nativist and mean-spirited as the ideology they claim to want to leave behind in England. The Labour Party is complicit by its incompetence and lack of relevance north of the border.

It also won't happen.

hmmmmm. Not sure about that. While there is a great deal of "anti English" sentiment ( or jealousy if you prefer) in Scotland I know many Scottish people who are keen on Independence but not anti English. Perhaps the emptiest vessels make the most noise?

Anecdotally the mood (at least amounst those i know) has changed since the recent Scottish referendum and certainly since the brexit vote. Several of the people i mention above were reluctant NO voters. They are now pro Independence.

I will declare my mum live sin Scotland so I might qualify for that EU passport

 

[Esker-pades]

I would describe myself as instinctively pro-union. I couldn't see myself voting for Scottish independence, but, depending on how badly Brexit goes, I could see myself spoiling my ballot.

I agree that a referendum should not be held until the impacts of Brexit are visible. Only at that point can one see if there has been a significant change in circumstances.

 

[GrimShady]

Scottish nationalism is a religion. My mother-in-law is a really hardcore nationalist who seems to forget that I'm English whenever she speaks to me. She seems to think Westminster government - bad, evil, right-wing, eats babies, kills old people, fights wars, etc. etc. etc. Scottish government - wonder of enlightened progressiveness, all sweetness and light, completely just and fair, always virtuous, never corrupt.

I just avoid the subject now. She seems convinced that because I don't support independence, I must be a Brexit-supporting hardcore Tory - I didn't vote for either of those things!

Most Scottish people don't have a particularly strong opinion one way or the other, and the people that do can be enormously tedious.



Absolutely. I very rarely agree with the Tories, but the Scottish Secretary is quite rightly refusing to hand over power for holding independence referenda to the Scottish Government. If they did, we'd hold the bloody things every couple of years.

As a Scotsman living in Scotland you're 100% correct on everything you've said. Scottish nationalism - Good, British nationalism - Bad. The SNP forget people vote for them to RUN the country not their silly agenda which will leave it in ruin. The run up to 2014 was disgraceful in the attitude towards the English.

The hardcore nationalist have managed to convince themselves that somehow they're party of the bigger "Woke" agenda.

 

[Journeyman]

I agree that a referendum should not be held until the impacts of Brexit are visible. Only at that point can one see if there has been a significant change in circumstances.

Even if Brexit doesn't go particularly well, for many people the effects will probably be fairly neutral. I don't travel abroad particularly frequently, my two current employers are small organisations that don't trade internationally, and I personally don't have any particular overseas interests or need to take advantage of any particular EU regulations. Certain things might change, but I have no idea what or how as yet, and I suspect that the specific, everyday impacts of Brexit on me personally will be quite minimal.

I think that will be the case for a lot of people, but we need to know that first before being encouraged to make a decision with very big consequences.

 

[d9009alycidon]

OK - here is my tuppence worth, bearing in mind I voted No in the Referendum last time out:

Anti - English Sentiment? No, Anti London Sentiment - Yes (and shared with many of our friends in the North of England)

The economy: If Scotland had wanted to benefit from the Oil boom, it would needed to have done so back in the 1970s, it is too late now, the revenues are spent (wisely or not) by the UK Government. At the last ballot, we were told that Scotland would retain the Pound and would remain tied to the Bank of England. This was a deal breaker for me, throughout the "boom" years of the 1980s interest rates were high to try and keep the economy of London and the SE of England in check, at the same time the economy in Scotland was struggling and the SNP were demanding that Scotland should have control over interest rates to better reflect the regional economy. That would be impossible in an independant Scotland with the Bank of England having control over interest rates. I dread to think what the SNP would do following independance, just giving them tax raising powers under devolution has been like giving fireworks to children, anyone earning over £43,430 currently faces paying 53% of their income in tax and national insurance - and they say this is fair!

Brexit: Now here there is a definate sense of injustice, the Conservatives stronly backed the "no" vote and used the threat that an independant Scotland would have to apply for membersip of the EU, Sticking with the Union was the only way to stay in the EU. Now that same Union is the reason that we are coming out of the EU.

Defence: I am still confused as to the Westminster attitude towards Scotland, we are called "subsidy junkies" by many, yet there is a strong determination to keep us part of the union. Of course Scotland is strategically essential to the defence of the UK, being home to the submarine based nuclear deterrant which the SNP are insistant would be removed from Faslane, Boris wants nukes but would prefer them to be as far away from London as possible

 

[Journeyman]

As a Scotsman living in Scotland you're 100% correct on everything you've said. Scottish nationalism - Good, British nationalism - Bad. The SNP forget people vote for them to RUN the country not their silly agenda which will leave it in ruin. The run up to 2014 was disgraceful in the attitude towards the English.

The hardcore nationalist have managed to convince themselves that somehow they're party of the bigger "Woke" agenda.

The thing is, the SNP are only going down the left-wing social democratic road because that happens to be what wins elections in Scotland at the moment. They were known as the Tartan Tories for many years, because they were politically much further to the right of where they are at the moment.

Let's face it, they have only one agenda, which is breaking up the Union, and they'll happily do or say whatever they think it will take to bring it about. If they figured that the cause of Scottish independence would be advanced by them becoming hard-right fascists, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Failed Unit]

According the Scottish Government. (Report published January 2019)

exports:
UK - £49.9Bn (60%)
Rest of world £17.6Bn (22%)
EU £14.9Bn (18%)

https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

Which of course will not be impacted if Scotland became independent. It will be difficult exactly what we see with the UK breakup from the EU will be repeated with Scotland/ rest of the UK.

 

[Esker-pades]

Even if Brexit doesn't go particularly well, for many people the effects will probably be fairly neutral. I don't travel abroad particularly frequently, my two current employers are small organisations that don't trade internationally, and I personally don't have any particular overseas interests or need to take advantage of any particular EU regulations. Certain things might change, but I have no idea what or how as yet, and I suspect that the specific, everyday impacts of Brexit on me personally will be quite minimal.

I think that will be the case for a lot of people, but we need to know that first before being encouraged to make a decision with very big consequences.

The first paragraph is moving towards a debate on the impacts of Brexit. I disagree with your assertions, but I'll leave it there. If you want to go further, we should do it in the main EU thread.

I agree with the second paragraph.