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Football fans "shunted out by train bosses"

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sheff1

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I'm pretty sure the premier league and the FA are very different entities and have nothing to do with each other. One is a world leading provider of sport. The other a bit of a joke. The FA do not control anything to do with the premier league

Considering the registered name is "The Football Association Premier League Ltd", and the FA has a veto in certain matters, your surety is misplaced.
 
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swt_passenger

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In terms of weekend long distance travel, I suspect a majority of the railway's regular customers are
football fans travelling to matches. Who else is so reliably going on the trains every two weeks at the weekend?



That's helpful.



I guarantee that when the works were planned, the information would have been available that the weekend in question would be the fourth round of the FA Cup, as it has been for as long as I can remember. If the railways had wanted to time the disruption to avoid a time when a large number of people would be looking to arrange travel at short notice (three weeks in advance at the most, as that is when the previous round of the tournament takes place) the information was available for them to do so.
You seem to be suggesting that the fourth round of the cup should be an engineering work free weekend every year? Then forgive me for saying that that’s ridiculous. There’s football every weekend for 9 months, but the railway plans over two years ahead. This is the same non-story it is every time it comes up.
 

hwl

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I guarantee that when the works were planned, the information would have been available that the weekend in question would be the fourth round of the FA Cup, as it has been for as long as I can remember. If the railways had wanted to time the disruption to avoid a time when a large number of people would be looking to arrange travel at short notice (three weeks in advance at the most, as that is when the previous round of the tournament takes place) the information was available for them to do so.
There is football every weekend in Jan / Feb / March hence everyweek is bad for football supporters in some way and some work in the Kings Cross works needs more closure (time /tracks/platforms) than others with 10? weekends of back to back work. By not working every weekend teams are mobilised longer and costs go up - so who will pay the extra for inefficiency?
The quantity of specialist equipment needed for the works means it effectively has to be done when there aren't many works in progress elsewhere.

As others have already pointed out the fans would have to leave the match early to make the last train if there wasn't engineering work.
 

Edders23

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Back in the 70's and beyond instead of using scheduled services BR would put on supporters specials I know it's less simple these days but it must be possible to lay on football specials for things like cup games

I can even remember spotting at Stafford once and there was a special on for the local non league team to Wembley (FA Trophy)
 

Aictos

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You seem to be suggesting that the fourth round of the cup should be an engineering work free weekend every year? Then forgive me for saying that that’s ridiculous. There’s football every weekend for 9 months, but the railway plans over two years ahead. This is the same non-story it is every time it comes up.

Yes definitely!
 

underbank

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As others have already pointed out the fans would have to leave the match early to make the last train if there wasn't engineering work.

Which is also completely unacceptable - the railway network needs to cater for travellers' needs. It was the same with matches at Wembley when fans couldn't get a train back to Manchester/Liverpool after the match. The railway always blames the football, but in reality, in an age where we're being pressured into driving less and using trains more, the railway needs to find ways to actually do what it's there for, i.e. transport people at times when they want to be transported. Yes, it won't always be possible and will take years to re-arrange working patterns, hours of work, but if we're seriously about reducing road transport, there is no alternative. Unless, of course, we're going to go into some kind of Soviet style era where you are restricted in where you live/work etc!
 

2L70

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You are restricted where you can go in certain parts of the country and then when people from urbanised areas move there they moan about the infrastructure :D
 

swt_passenger

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This very weekend, Chelsea fans will be at a 5.30 pm Saturday game at Newcastle in the league. Perhaps NR shouldn’t have planned any engineering work this weekend either, given that the game was in the fixture list 6 months ago...
 

silverfoxcc

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No doubt i will be shouted down here, but underbank has it in a nutshell. Over the years we ( it seems) we have a 'public' service that operates with drivers on a 9-5 M-F , or so it appears ,as there is always the bleat of getting people to work overtime etc. Was it like this as they say 'bak in the good old days? where it was seemed eekends were part of the scheduled work ethic going by the amount of memoirs written.
Yes, years ago there were footex, even when there want much of a demand putting extra carriages on scheduled services to cater for any over crowding Mow the TOC seem to operate on the minimum amount of stock and not even thinking of using using a 60 years old timetable when there was 30% more train per hour 9 instead of the 6 now( GA i am looking at you for Tottenham home matches), despite the advances made in the intervening years. Plus everything is run by accountants. How many units to run a service? 6. well have 7 just in case, everything seems pared to the bone. Yet get onto the continent and there are loco hauled trains with stock to spare. Flexibility appears to be a dirty word nowadays.
And Yes, i think the TV and the FA should have their collectives backsides kicked for being just as money orientated.and not checking on projected closures. But two wrongs do not make a right. One part of this problem needs to make a change. Chiltern (and am i glad to get away from that TOC) ran services through Wembley on Boxing Days for people to get to a tinpot shopping centre in the middle of nowhere,. What was wrong with Oxford St and the shopping centres at Stratford and Shepherds Bush? and completely ignoring 30k football fans who lived along the line between Birmingham and London and who jammed those services on a normal match day. Perhaps the accountants poo pooed that as well?
And whilst The FA/PL have made a move to making the travelling away supporters cost less. It seems the TOCs completely ignore the opportunity. And as it is quids cheaper for 4 guys to share the petrol than pay the equivalent each to go by train. Plus you wont get Greta bellowing in your ear accusing you of killing the planet lol
Oh for the days of the Merrymakers.Packed trains and a cheap day out No doubt some graduate will come up with a 21st century footex scheme soon. Cant see it happening there are not enough carriages and locos left to make it work, let along asking for volunteers!

We will just have to put up with it
 

Aictos

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I disagree, the works that is being done at Kings Cross although short term pain is actually going to deliver benefits decades after completion. It's just a pity that some have a Me Me Me atttiude because the work HAS to be done and the FA can easily reschedule Cup Matches but they choose not to.
 

al78

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Even if one overlooks any antisocial behaviour, it’s still a thorough nuisance to the railway and its regular customers having a sudden tidal wave of people all turn up at the same moment wanting to make a similar journey.

You mean the very thing that makes public transport efficient as a mode of transport? Perhaps the railway will have to think of ways to deal with this, given it happens regularly in the morning and evening rush hour.
 

Bantamzen

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I wonder how England fans get along, travelling all over Europe to every corner and even beyond into Asia? If only there were alternative ways to move people in large numbers, or means to accommodate at least some until the next available train for their journeys home.....

Got to laugh at some of the rants, try Plymouth away on a Tuesday night from the north of England. Yet somehow many fans manage it! I've done it myself, more than once (and seemingly never won when we have....)
 

underbank

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I wonder how England fans get along, travelling all over Europe to every corner and even beyond into Asia? If only there were alternative ways to move people in large numbers, or means to accommodate at least some until the next available train for their journeys home.....

Got to laugh at some of the rants, try Plymouth away on a Tuesday night from the north of England. Yet somehow many fans manage it! I've done it myself, more than once (and seemingly never won when we have....)

They fly to Euro matches and drive to UK matches. Both things that people are being preached at not to do and to use public transport instead. So, if people are being told to use trains and billions are being invested in the likes of CrossRail and HS2, the rail network needs to accommodate that. Otherwise, we may as well just continue driving and flying and not bother spending billions on improving the rail network that will continue to be very restrictive for anything but dense commuter flows.
 

Gemz91

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Wonder if West Auckland Town fans will able to get a train back after their FA Vase game at Plymouth Parkway next month.
 

bramling

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You mean the very thing that makes public transport efficient as a mode of transport? Perhaps the railway will have to think of ways to deal with this, given it happens regularly in the morning and evening rush hour.

There’s a difference between a regular predictable short-distance commuter flow which can be planned for almost to the nearest seat if resources are available, and a haphazard one-off flow of (potentially troublesome) people often doing long distances.

Clearly the railway isn’t interested in the latter or we’d see more attempt at accommodating them.

Having hundreds of people all turn up at once to monopolise and take up every seat for the whole journey of the XXXX Manc to London or whatever isn’t what the railway does best.
 

hwl

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No doubt i will be shouted down here, but underbank has it in a nutshell. Over the years we ( it seems) we have a 'public' service that operates with drivers on a 9-5 M-F , or so it appears ,as there is always the bleat of getting people to work overtime etc. Was it like this as they say 'bak in the good old days? where it was seemed eekends were part of the scheduled work ethic going by the amount of memoirs written.
Yes, years ago there were footex, even when there want much of a demand putting extra carriages on scheduled services to cater for any over crowding Mow the TOC seem to operate on the minimum amount of stock and not even thinking of using using a 60 years old timetable when there was 30% more train per hour 9 instead of the 6 now( GA i am looking at you for Tottenham home matches), despite the advances made in the intervening years. Plus everything is run by accountants. How many units to run a service? 6. well have 7 just in case, everything seems pared to the bone. Yet get onto the continent and there are loco hauled trains with stock to spare. Flexibility appears to be a dirty word nowadays.
And Yes, i think the TV and the FA should have their collectives backsides kicked for being just as money orientated.and not checking on projected closures. But two wrongs do not make a right. One part of this problem needs to make a change. Chiltern (and am i glad to get away from that TOC) ran services through Wembley on Boxing Days for people to get to a tinpot shopping centre in the middle of nowhere,. What was wrong with Oxford St and the shopping centres at Stratford and Shepherds Bush? and completely ignoring 30k football fans who lived along the line between Birmingham and London and who jammed those services on a normal match day. Perhaps the accountants poo pooed that as well?
And whilst The FA/PL have made a move to making the travelling away supporters cost less. It seems the TOCs completely ignore the opportunity. And as it is quids cheaper for 4 guys to share the petrol than pay the equivalent each to go by train. Plus you wont get Greta bellowing in your ear accusing you of killing the planet lol
Oh for the days of the Merrymakers.Packed trains and a cheap day out No doubt some graduate will come up with a 21st century footex scheme soon. Cant see it happening there are not enough carriages and locos left to make it work, let along asking for volunteers!

We will just have to put up with it
It the days of the old FootEx, far more of those matches were 1500 on Saturday so the vast majority won't have run anywhere near the first /last services so no effects on overnight engineering works. A big part of the problem is the move away from 1500 for the high profile matches with large fan bases looking to travel.

Bicester V. has a different selection of shops to Oxford Street and the Westfields
 

GoneSouth

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After having been stuck on an HST which filled up at Swindon with race-goers ex Cheltenham, yes absolutely. Fortunately there weren’t that many of them as there’s a limit to how many could physically cram on to the 2-car 150 they’d just come off, but that was still unpleasant enough.
Couldn’t agree more, I’ve witnessed many race goers on their way to Cheltenham on a Friday and Saturday morning and there’s a lot of drinking going on leading to rowdy behaviour by 11am. It’s a national embarrassment really (for Wales as that’s where they were travelling from :p). Stag and hen parties are a pain in the bum too so let’s not pretend it’s just football fans who cause problems.
 

SuperNova

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This very weekend, Chelsea fans will be at a 5.30 pm Saturday game at Newcastle in the league. Perhaps NR shouldn’t have planned any engineering work this weekend either, given that the game was in the fixture list 6 months ago...

Or Sky should've checked the implications around moving this fixture to 5.30pm as the kick off time wasn't in the fixture list 6 months ago. A 3pm KO would've given Chelsea fans two direct services at 17:26 and 18:29.

It's not up to the railway - it's up to the broadcasters.
 

Ianno87

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Having hundreds of people all turn up at once to monopolise and take up every seat for the whole journey of the XXXX Manc to London or whatever isn’t what the railway does best.

Well, at least not a railway like the UK's that is already run to such a high level of capacity utilisation, day in, day out.
 

Richard P

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Which is also completely unacceptable - the railway network needs to cater for travellers' needs. It was the same with matches at Wembley when fans couldn't get a train back to Manchester/Liverpool after the match. The railway always blames the football, but in reality, in an age where we're being pressured into driving less and using trains more, the railway needs to find ways to actually do what it's there for, i.e. transport people at times when they want to be transported. Yes, it won't always be possible and will take years to re-arrange working patterns, hours of work, but if we're seriously about reducing road transport, there is no alternative. Unless, of course, we're going to go into some kind of Soviet style era where you are restricted in where you live/work etc!

I couldn't agree more, bottom line is we are being encouraged to use public transport yet when we want to use it it's not available.

I travelled for 20+ years watching football using football specials. Anywhere and everywhere I went from Manchester - to Glasgow, Newcastle, Leeds, Ipswich, Swansea, Southampton, Birmingham et al at weekends and in midweek. I once went to Brighton on a Monday night when the fixture only occurred because of a draw in the FA Cup 2 days earlier - imaging trying to arrange a service now at 2 days notice - it wouldn't happen. Neither to football specials now

Besides these there were special trains too that catered for jo public. You could go to a concert at the NEC in Birmingham, walk out of the venue to Birmingham International station at 11.00pm and get a train to Manchester or London, put on specifically to support concert goers. Nowadays you need to stay in a hotel after a gig as that no longer happens

Railways need to understand they are here to serve the paying customer rather than operate as travel prevention specialists
 

swt_passenger

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Or Sky should've checked the implications around moving this fixture to 5.30pm as the kick off time wasn't in the fixture list 6 months ago. A 3pm KO would've given Chelsea fans two direct services at 17:26 and 18:29.

It's not up to the railway - it's up to the broadcasters.
As someone said earlier in the thread.

But when Sky say jump, the clubs reply ”how high”. Samuels, the quoted journalist, should be going after Sky, not NR. Perhaps he just hasn’t ever noticed Newcastle fans in Southampton late on a Monday evening. I suspect the Geordie advance travel plans are wrecked a few times each season, even without considering rail issues.
 

Dr Hoo

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(SNIP)
Yes, years ago there were footex, even when there want much of a demand putting extra carriages on scheduled services to cater for any over crowding Mow the TOC seem to operate on the minimum amount of stock and not even thinking of using using a 60 years old timetable when there was 30% more train per hour 9 instead of the 6 now( GA i am looking at you for Tottenham home matches), despite the advances made in the intervening years. Plus everything is run by accountants. How many units to run a service? 6. well have 7 just in case, everything seems pared to the bone. Yet get onto the continent and there are loco hauled trains with stock to spare. Flexibility appears to be a dirty word nowadays.
(SNIP)

We will just have to put up with it
I am struggling to understand your point here. As a former resident of Enfield I am well familiar with the extent to which movement of fans to and from Tottenham (and other grounds in North London) impacts on the rail network.
Strangely enough, since 60 years ago the opening of the Victoria Line (let alone wider changes like the M11 and M25) has had quite a significant effect on the relative attraction and importance of main line rail.
Greater Anglia only operates via the Lee Valley. Back the 1960s the core service between 1700 and 1800 on a Saturday afternoon was one little DMU each way in the whole hour!
The current GA timetable offers 12 trains each way from Tottenham Hale in that hour, mainly if not entirely composed of 8 cars.
 

GoneSouth

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I couldn't agree more, bottom line is we are being encouraged to use public transport yet when we want to use it it's not available.

I travelled for 20+ years watching football using football specials. Anywhere and everywhere I went from Manchester - to Glasgow, Newcastle, Leeds, Ipswich, Swansea, Southampton, Birmingham et al at weekends and in midweek. I once went to Brighton on a Monday night when the fixture only occurred because of a draw in the FA Cup 2 days earlier - imaging trying to arrange a service now at 2 days notice - it wouldn't happen. Neither to football specials now

Besides these there were special trains too that catered for jo public. You could go to a concert at the NEC in Birmingham, walk out of the venue to Birmingham International station at 11.00pm and get a train to Manchester or London, put on specifically to support concert goers. Nowadays you need to stay in a hotel after a gig as that no longer happens

Railways need to understand they are here to serve the paying customer rather than operate as travel prevention specialists
Believe it or not, train companies do very occasionally still offer extra services to meet demand. Take the concerts at Cardiff rugby stadium where Arriva used to make a good effort with the limited resources available to them to offer extra trains / later trains / increased capacity following a concert. From memory they offered extra late services to Hereford, Gloucester and the valley lines, with FGW picking up demand for people travelling west. They had extra staff to manage a queuing systems outside the station and I thought they made a reasonable job of it.

I’ve no idea if this still happens with TFW but it should. Ah those days of being able to catch a train after a gig... sadly long gone for most venues!

I don’t imagine Northern go out of their way to add anything extra at the Manchester Arena above Victoria for example. Anybody know?

Also, on the subject of football trains, did I read somewhere that the station at Manchester United is no longer being used? If so, that does more than hint at how valuable the football market is to the railway!
 

Darandio

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Also, on the subject of football trains, did I read somewhere that the station at Manchester United is no longer being used? If so, that does more than hint at how valuable the football market is to the railway!

You did, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with how the railway values the market. It was at the request of the club itself.
 

Darandio

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Ah ok, any idea why?

Health and Safety. They no longer wanted a portion of the 75,000 in attendance to try and crowd a narrow platform under one of the stands. There are far easier and safer ways to disperse the crowd in other directions towards trams etc.
 

GoneSouth

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Health and Safety. They no longer wanted a portion of the 75,000 in attendance to try and crowd a narrow platform under one of the stands. There are far easier and safer ways to disperse the crowd in other directions towards trams etc.
That does seem a shame. I don’t know the layout of the station but I’m guessing it butts up to the stadium building and there is no room for expansion?

So would football special trains have run from this station for a midweek game at around 2130?

As for the Chelsea fans in Hull, I’m sure it’s not the first time they’ve had a late finish to a game up north, they could even enjoy discovering a new city, or as someone earlier said there might not be enough hotel rooms in Hull, so go discover York, Leeds or Sheffield. All have something to offer!
 

Llanigraham

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Besides these there were special trains too that catered for jo public. You could go to a concert at the NEC in Birmingham, walk out of the venue to Birmingham International station at 11.00pm and get a train to Manchester or London, put on specifically to support concert goers. Nowadays you need to stay in a hotel after a gig as that no longer happens

Railways need to understand they are here to serve the paying customer rather than operate as travel prevention specialists

So can I demand a service to Aberystwyth from a few of us go to a gig at the NEC?
And what happened 25 years ago bears no relationship to the modern railway.
 

6Gman

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No doubt i will be shouted down here, but underbank has it in a nutshell. Over the years we ( it seems) we have a 'public' service that operates with drivers on a 9-5 M-F , or so it appears ,as there is always the bleat of getting people to work overtime etc. Was it like this as they say 'bak in the good old days? where it was seemed eekends were part of the scheduled work ethic going by the amount of memoirs written.

If you think drivers work 9-5 M-F you're in fantasy land. Who do you think works the 0448 Holyhead - Euston or the train that finishes up at Manchester at 0159 (2300 ex Euston) ? And works the ECS and preparation/ disposal at each end ?

Why were Sundays (seemingly) less of a problem in the "old days" ? Because the Sunday services were thinner, and because footplate staff were less well paid, so Sunday work was much sought after.

And the issue with late evening long-distance Saturday trains is engineering possessions (and possibly station staffing) rather than on-train staffing.
 

Grumpy Git

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I think the worst case of this was when Liverpool played Everton in the FA Cup semi-final in 2012.

The FA wanting to maximise revenue now insist FA Cup semi-finals are played at Wembley (previously this game would have been at Old Trafford or Maine Road/Ethihad). Scousers of both colours were expected to attend the game in London with absolutely no prospect of using public transport to get to or from Wembley due to engineering works - what a shameless shambles.

Blame the FA not the railway.

Of course if all fans had stayed away, it would have resolved the madness in one fell swoop (nice and embarrassing for the TV showing a game with no crowd), but unfortunately that was never going to happen!
 
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