LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[route101]

The service to Glasgow last night was a 91 . It had seat reservations tickets , so were they using Azuma numbers or was it planned? Was 9119 too.

 

[DanNCL]

The service to Glasgow last night was a 91 . It had seat reservations tickets , so were they using Azuma numbers or was it planned? Was 9119 too.

It was a one off, that service is back to being an Azuma again today

 

[brick60000]

As time is moving on, is there any indication of a rough date for the final sets being withdrawn?

Currently sat on one to York. Probably going over old ground here, so sorry if I am - but I completely fail to understand why stock that, from a passenger perspective, is so far superior to an Azuma is being scrapped so quickly and withdrawn from service. Surely new stock should be focussed on routes that actually need capacity first. Pacers are only just being withdrawn, and look what a state they’re in. That’s not right, but it’s hard to believe the mark 4s are being withdrawn at the same time.

Are they really in such bad nick structurally, some of them at least?

 

[D365]

Currently sat on one to York. Probably going over old ground here, so sorry if I am - but I completely fail to understand why stock that, from a passenger perspective, is so far superior to an Azuma is being scrapped so quickly and withdrawn from service. Surely new stock should be focussed on routes that actually need capacity first. Pacers are only just being withdrawn, and look what a state they’re in. That’s not right, but it’s hard to believe the mark 4s are being withdrawn at the same time.

A number of Mk4 rakes are being passed on to TfW and Grand Central.

As for being superior to the Azuma, I feel the new units are far more modern and a definite step up. But everyone will have their opinions.

Mk4 rolling stock would be completely unsuitable for the services that Pacers run/used to run.

 

[Scott M]

Why is it taking LNER so long to get the Azumas in full operation when TPE seemingly got their new stock up and running overnight?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why is it taking LNER so long to get the Azumas in full operation when TPE seemingly got their new stock up and running overnight?

I think most people would argue the opposite, TPE only have a handful of new trains in traffic and that’s months after they were planned to be in.

The TPE Fleet cascade has been a disaster zone, the LNER cascade is steady.

 

[Scott M]

I think most people would argue the opposite, TPE only have a handful of new trains in traffic and that’s months after they were planned to be in.

The TPE Fleet cascade has been a disaster zone, the LNER cascade is steady.

Ah fair, just when I am around Newcastle I see a lot of the new TPE trains whereas I still see a lot of the LNER old guard.

Maybe I’ve just been in the right place at the right time.

 

[D365]

It also helps that the introduction of the Class 802s draws on the experience of the IEP project.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are they really in such bad nick structurally, some of them at least?

I really have no idea (I don't work in the rail industry and am not the right sort of engineer to understand these things) but I doubt they are in 'such bad nick' that they need to be withdrawn given that:

• the 'rule of thumb' states that diesel trains have a design life of around 30 years
• one of the advertised benifits of electrification is that electric trains last longer than diesels
• Virgin's franchise bid proposed retaining part of the fleet
  
• comparable hauled stock to the mark 4s (ie. mark 3s) has lasted 40 years and in some cases will last much longer thanks to the power door mods for Chiltern, XC, ScotRail and GWR
  
• the IC225s are only around 30 years old, so round about 'life expired' for a diesel but not for an electric
• the 9-car class 801 order was put under review for a while, and perhaps almost didn't go ahead (similarly, the GWR class 800s for services beyond Exeter were deleted from IEP, only for GWR's franchise bid to effectively reinstate that by ordering class 802s)

I can think of only three reasons why the IC225s are being withdrawn; government desire for more shiny new trains through IEP, fleet standardisation and the capcity gain from going from 9x23m vehicles to 9x26m (10x26m ie. 2x 5-car class 800/801 is basically the same capacity as 9x26m).

 

[Failed Unit]

Standard fleet helps. But I suspect lobbying to keep the factory open also had a lot to do with it. As other posters said refurbished mk4s with new loco(s) was considered by virgin prior to ordering the 801s

 

[D365]

The IC225s are only around 30 years old, so round about 'life expired' for a diesel but not for an electric

Not sure about the Mk4 rolling stock, but the Class 91s were quoted at manufacture as having a 30-35 year expected lifespan. Since then they haven't been known for outstanding reliability...

Even if the Class 91s were replaced with new electric locomotives, the Mk4s would only be suitable for another 15 years. Your dislike of the Class 801s is known, but were clearly enough advantages identified.

 

[Woolly]

Not sure about the Mk4 rolling stock, but the Class 91s were quoted at manufacture as having a 30-35 year expected lifespan. Since then they haven't been known for outstanding reliability...

Even if the Class 91s were replaced with new electric locomotives, the Mk4s would only be suitable for another 15 years. Your dislike of the Class 801s is known, but were clearly enough advantages identified.

How anyone without blinkers on can say the Azumas are superior to the present Mk4s is laughable. With the current rip-off Britain train prices we have you'd surely expect a step UP in quality instead of an ironing board as the back of a seat?

 

[trebor79]

I completely fail to understand why stock that, from a passenger perspective, is so far superior to an Azuma is being scrapped so quickly and withdrawn from service.

Standard fleet helps. But I suspect lobbying to keep the factory open also had a lot to do with it.

Bingo. Got it in one.

 

[swt_passenger]

It also helps that the introduction of the Class 802s draws on the experience of the IEP project.

Er, so is that in comparison to the ECML fleet that IS the IEP project?

 

[cactustwirly]

As other posters said refurbished mk4s with new loco(s) was considered by virgin prior to ordering the 801s

They weren't ordered by Virgin, but the DfT, as part of a big batch to replace the HSTs on the GWML and ECML.
It was cheaper overall to buy 801s as part of the order, rather than wait 10 years to replace the 91s.

 

[D365]

How anyone without blinkers on can say the Azumas are superior to the present Mk4s is laughable. With the current rip-off Britain train prices we have you'd surely expect a step UP in quality instead of an ironing board as the back of a seat?

Lovely.

Er, so is that in comparison to the ECML fleet that IS the IEP project?

Sorry, I was a bit vague in my original wording; I imagine that the introduction of Class 802s under TPE can draw on First's experience with their GWR fleets. Whereas the CAF rolling stock is completely new to First Group.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, I was a bit vague in my original wording; I imagine that the introduction of Class 802s under TPE can draw on First's experience with their GWR fleets. Whereas the CAF rolling stock is completely new to First Group.

Yes that makes more sense, there have been reports about GWR assisting with training etc.

 

[LeylandLen]

Passing southbound through Crewe yesterday at about 1300 on a 390, I thought I saw a half set of a class 91 and mk4s in LNER livery opposite Basford Hall parked up with a shunter on front.Couldn't tell if it was a power car 91 or DVT .Any info would be appreciated, thanks x

 

[bramling]

How anyone without blinkers on can say the Azumas are superior to the present Mk4s is laughable. With the current rip-off Britain train prices we have you'd surely expect a step UP in quality instead of an ironing board as the back of a seat?

Must agree. Operationally the IEPs have benefits, but from a user’s point of view even being charitable they’re nothing special. The interiors in the Mk4s are massively superior IMO.

 

[sd0733]

Passing southbound through Crewe yesterday at about 1300 on a 390, I thought I saw a half set of a class 91 and mk4s in LNER livery opposite Basford Hall parked up with a shunter on front.Couldn't tell if it was a power car 91 or DVT .Any info would be appreciated, thanks x

Those are the TfW sets which are currently at Crewe. It will be a DVT on the end and when they are running it's a 67 providing power. 3 sets will be with TfW eventually.

 

[Marton]

Must agree. Operationally the IEPs have benefits, but from a user’s point of view even being charitable they’re nothing special. The interiors in the Mk4s are massively superior IMO.

As one of the crew said to me. These are commuter trains not long distance.

 

[50039]

Must agree. Operationally the IEPs have benefits, but from a user’s point of view even being charitable they’re nothing special. The interiors in the Mk4s are massively superior IMO.

Over the final few weeks I rode in Mk3s, Mk4s and the Azumas... for me, the Mk3s seemed to have the best ride, followed by the Mk4s... no doubting the speed of the Azuma, but i still think the older stock rides better

 

[trainmania100]

Are 91114 and 91117 still expected to be withdrawn at the end of this month?

 

[DanNCL]

Are 91114 and 91117 still expected to be withdrawn at the end of this month?

117 was withdrawn back in September and is now owned by Europhoenix - see this thread.

Not sure what the plan is for 114.

 

[ST156]

Bounds Green to Worksop path due to operate today - likely another Mk4 set heading for storage.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06342/2020-01-20/detailed

 

[Southern Dvr]

It does seem to me that LNER have solved the problem of overcrowding on their train by introducing the Azumas. Far less people will want to use them based on their comfort. Cost/convenience maybe but not comfort. End to end journeys are undoubtedly going to reduce.

There’s no way I could travel on one for more than an hour and half. Everything about them goes against what rail travel should be. The seats are incredibly uncomfortable, the lighting far too bright, nothing seems natural in them.

I travelled to Doncaster on Friday on the 0930 KGX-EDB Mark IV set, it was busy and wasn’t a great journey. I returned from Leeds on the 1845 Azuma and was amazed that someone thought these trains were an upgrade in passenger comfort.

now to silence the critics who think this is an old is better than new rant, I also travelled on a 331 and found it superior to a 321 or 333.

My biggest complaint is that the damn Azumas externally look great, they are mostly the same length as what they are replacing but internally they are nothing short of disgraceful.

Perhaps then the UK has now decided that long distance train travel isn’t a thing and for long distances we’ll all just fly but short hops nobody cares about the trains they travel on?

 

[capital12]

Have to agree with that, last week due to the wires down on WCML I used the ECML for the first time in ages - luckily it was a Mk4 set which I sat comfortably in for 3 hours without needing to get up once!

Changed at York onto an IET and after 10 minutes my back ached - I was glad to get off it.

I base my opinion purely on the comfort of the journey and once these things are the only option the winner will be the car in future!

 

[Southern Dvr]

It is ironic really, the deterioration of long distance travel on the railways came around 2000 with the Voyager disaster. The seats then were (if you could get one) acceptable, the length of the train was not. What I find with Azumas is that the length of the train is rarely a problem, but the quality of the seat (and all the other stuff I've already ranted about!) are the problem.

As a brief aside i noticed the Paddington to Cardiff workings were 5 cars a few Saturdays ago, is that normal?

 

[trainmania100]

Does anyone know the BN and stock of today's 5Z,91 withdrawal move? Thanks

 

[LeylandLen]

Does anyone know the BN and stock of today's 5Z,91 withdrawal move? Thanks

Set BN20

66702 Blue Lightning hauling
82200 DVT : Driving Van Trailer