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Cambridge South new station construction progress.

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Class 170101

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I asked a Network Rail representative at the consultation session today, and he said firmly that there would at best be passive provision for this (or anything else that would facilitate joining up EWR in due course). I also thought the three options looked very similar and the presentation material did not make it at all clear what the various pros and cons were - mostly to do with the road/busway connectivity.

So no actual tracks then - can't see many trains being able to stop there. The section between Cambridge and Shepreth Branch Jn is busy with trains already.
 

D365

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£33.60 for 14 days? Surely not that cheap, what am I missing?

Not sure about other cities, but £30 gets you one week in Sheffield. If this is true, it's a bargain by comparison.
 

eastdyke

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So no actual tracks then - can't see many trains being able to stop there. The section between Cambridge and Shepreth Branch Jn is busy with trains already.
4 platforms, so yes actual tracks!
@MarkyT proposed (IMO) a very elegant layout somewhere up-thread.
From the consultation:
The station would have:
• Four platforms with step-free access via a footbridge and lifts;
• Platforms with seating and shelter for waiting passengers;
• A ticket office and ticket machines, along with automatic ticket gates;
• Taxi and passenger drop off facilities:
• Facilities such as a retail/catering unit, a waiting room and toilets;
• Blue badge parking; and
• Cycle parking.

I assume that this will establish a design and cost for the base case. It beggars belief that it would be built without full consideration of both if/how EWR will be implemented, the 4 tracking through to Cambridge, extra platforms at Cambridge (legacy) and all the potential services that the next 30+ years might bring.
NR did publish discussion proposals for all of the latter, a link existed either on the EWR thread or the Cambridge-Newmarket thread but the link is now defunct :(. The proposals included partial doubling of Cambridge/Newmarket, turnback at Newmarket, thoughts of enhanced/relocated rolling stock facilities etc etc.
Cambridge does become quite complex (and expensive). It's easy to see why the current consultation is basic in nature only.
 

camflyer

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4 platforms, so yes actual tracks!
@MarkyT proposed (IMO) a very elegant layout somewhere up-thread.
From the consultation:


I assume that this will establish a design and cost for the base case. It beggars belief that it would be built without full consideration of both if/how EWR will be implemented, the 4 tracking through to Cambridge, extra platforms at Cambridge (legacy) and all the potential services that the next 30+ years might bring.
NR did publish discussion proposals for all of the latter, a link existed either on the EWR thread or the Cambridge-Newmarket thread but the link is now defunct :(. The proposals included partial doubling of Cambridge/Newmarket, turnback at Newmarket, thoughts of enhanced/relocated rolling stock facilities etc etc.
Cambridge does become quite complex (and expensive). It's easy to see why the current consultation is basic in nature only.

I think this was the report: https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Cambridgeshire-Corridor-Study-2019.pdf

So, according to Network Rail there is no need to redouble any of the Newmarket line or add additional services until 2043
 

eastdyke

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I think this was the report: https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Cambridgeshire-Corridor-Study-2019.pdf
So, according to Network Rail there is no need to redouble any of the Newmarket line or add additional services until 2043
Thank you so much for that, good find. I just couldn't get there!
Remember this is a basic DfT growth scenario. I and probably others believe that it is understated in which case Para 6.1.2 kicks in:
6.1.2 Alignment with the Rail Network
It should also be recognised that this study has considered evidence to support the potential for rail growth in the study area to be higher than those in the DfT aligned growth. While this study did not seek to answer the strategic questions for growth scenario 2, it is recommended that, should short term levels of growth align more closely with scenario 2, further assessment should take place (to) consider how these conditional outputs can be met.
And at this stage it is still a developing SOBC, it is a start.
I think that integration with EWR Central Section (and the pending Western Section phase 2 come to that) will be a big headache and separating costs will be problematic. 6tph, plus perhaps 1tph freight firing to/from Marston Vale/Bletchley and with 8 car EWR trains possibly on the far horizon too.
If all those Growth Arc homes do get built then 'The Railway' at Cambridge is going to be very very busy indeed :)
Cheers!
 

camflyer

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Thank you so much for that, good find. I just couldn't get there!
Remember this is a basic DfT growth scenario. I and probably others believe that it is understated in which case Para 6.1.2 kicks in:

And at this stage it is still a developing SOBC, it is a start.
I think that integration with EWR Central Section (and the pending Western Section phase 2 come to that) will be a big headache and separating costs will be problematic. 6tph, plus perhaps 1tph freight firing to/from Marston Vale/Bletchley and with 8 car EWR trains possibly on the far horizon too.
If all those Growth Arc homes do get built then 'The Railway' at Cambridge is going to be very very busy indeed :)
Cheers!

The introduction of EWR (when it finally happens) will cause a significant change in behaviour making journeys become practical as zero or one change train rides which nobody in their right mind would currently consider taking by rail. That alone should push growth above the basic DfT scenario.
 

Ianno87

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The introduction of EWR (when it finally happens) will cause a significant change in behaviour making journeys become practical as zero or one change train rides which nobody in their right mind would currently consider taking by rail. That alone should push growth above the basic DfT scenario.


Example: Milton Keynes - Cambridge South - over the bridge - Stansted Airport.
 

83A

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It seems strange to me that Cambridge North has good parking arrangements (at least at present given usage) but compared to Cambridge South isn't served as well.

I am watching this with interest. I live about 15 miles out of Cambridge and periodically work in London. Currently I have to cycle to Dullingham or Newmarket and then change at Cambridge. However the service to Newmarket is not brilliant esp in the evenings. It would be very useful to park at Cambridge south and pick up a train to London.

Driving and parking at Cambridge (main) station is a no no unless you head in at 5am. Cambridge North is a pain due to the A14* and the Science Park traffic. So the idea of a south station where I can avoid the A14 or central Cambridge appeals.

* Although maybe the A14 will improve when the current upgrade is complete, but I wont hold my breath!
 

eastdyke

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Example: Milton Keynes - Cambridge South - over the bridge - Stansted Airport.
Something new about EWR?
Or perhaps Milton Keynes - Bletchley - under the high level subway - Cambridge South - over the bridge - Stansted Airport?
Will also offer a much quicker route Cambridge - Birmingham and points North-West albeit with changes.
It would be very useful to park at Cambridge south and pick up a train to London.
Driving and parking at Cambridge (main) station is a no no unless you head in at 5am. Cambridge North is a pain due to the A14* and the Science Park traffic. So the idea of a south station where I can avoid the A14 or central Cambridge appeals.
* Although maybe the A14 will improve when the current upgrade is complete, but I wont hold my breath!
Cambridge South is apparently not going to be encouraging outward commuting and no new car parks are proposed for that general purpose (blue badge excepted). The roads would just not cope.
 

Ianno87

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Driving and parking at Cambridge (main) station is a no no unless you head in at 5am. Cambridge North is a pain due to the A14* and the Science Park traffic. So the idea of a south station where I can avoid the A14 or central Cambridge appeals.

If you think the Science Park traffic is bad, you clearly haven't seen the traffic to Addenbrooke's and the Biomedical Campus each morning....

Depending on where you are headed in London, is Whittlesford Parkway convenient?

Something new about EWR?
Or perhaps Milton Keynes - Bletchley - under the high level subway - Cambridge South - over the bridge - Stansted Airport?
Will also offer a much quicker route Cambridge - Birmingham and points North-West albeit with changes.

If you live in generic MK suburbia, a taxi/lift/Uber to Bletchley (in effect "Milton Keynes South") to pick up an EWR service may be just as convenient as getting to Milton Keynes Central.
 

camflyer

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I am watching this with interest. I live about 15 miles out of Cambridge and periodically work in London. Currently I have to cycle to Dullingham or Newmarket and then change at Cambridge. However the service to Newmarket is not brilliant esp in the evenings. It would be very useful to park at Cambridge south and pick up a train to London.

I'm in a similar position and will often drive to Whittlesford Parkway to catch the Liverpool St service. Or sometimes Ely if I need to get into Kings Cross. Connecting back to Newmarket in the evening is just a pain.

Increasing Cambridge to Newmarket services to 2tph would be a big help with this as would improving the parking provision at Newmarket which since Greater Anglia recently started charging the car park in now usually empty but the nearby residential streets full.
 
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83A

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If you think the Science Park traffic is bad, you clearly haven't seen the traffic to Addenbrooke's and the Biomedical Campus each morning....

Ha good point. I used to work on the science park so its burned in my memory. I must admit its very rare I would drive into Cambridge from the south, but I can imagine now you mention it, how bad it might be!

Depending on where you are headed in London, is Whittlesford Parkway convenient?

I normally want to head to KGX or STP but when I do got to LST I prefer Audley End.

At the moment I avoid Cambridge and drive to Ely or Royston and pick up the train for KGX....
 

83A

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Increasing Cambridge to Newmarket services to 2tph would be a big help with this as would improving the parking provision at Newmarket which since Greater Anglia recently started charging the car park in now usually empty but the nearby residential streets full.

They really made a rod for themselves in Newmarket by building houses where the up line and island platform was. I cant see how they could expand Newmarket unless they buy back the old station building and the land in front of it, demolish it and start again.
 

camflyer

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I'm currently working on the Science Park. Getting onto the site in the morning usually isn't too bad. It's getting out of it in the evening which is hard when Milton and Kings Hedges roads are both backed up.

I've turned down jobs at the Addenbrookes/BioMedical site as the commute would be too difficult what with the local roads and lack on site parking. When Cambridge South open it would make it more attractive.
 

MikeWM

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It beggars belief that it would be built without full consideration of both if/how EWR will be implemented, the 4 tracking through to Cambridge, extra platforms at Cambridge (legacy) and all the potential services that the next 30+ years might bring.

Doesn't beggar my belief, unfortunately. In my opinion, the last 20-ish years in Cambridgeshire, and Cambridge in particular, have been a textbook example of doing occasional bits of stuff without any logical thought as to how it all fits together. Joined-up thinking doesn't seem to be done around here, any more than we have a joined-up transport network.

There are of course about 20 different councils/groups/organisations/consultants that continue to 'investigate' how to solve travel issues and churn out pie-in-the-sky reports from time to time, which is a good way of burning through money without achieving much of anything worthwhile.
 

MikeWM

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I'm currently working on the Science Park. Getting onto the site in the morning usually isn't too bad. It's getting out of it in the evening which is hard when Milton and Kings Hedges roads are both backed up.

I've turned down jobs at the Addenbrookes/BioMedical site as the commute would be too difficult what with the local roads and lack on site parking. When Cambridge South open it would make it more attractive.

I think severe congestion is more consistent and reliable in the Addenbrookes area. The Science Park is more variable - it can be more-or-less ok, or it can be a complete disaster. I'm not sure adding extra traffic on Milton Road (the only vehicular access to Cambridge North) was/is exactly a good plan, however, especially as the Cowley Road/Science Park junction is, to put it nicely, a bit of a shambles.

(Of course the nonsensical Fendon Road roundabout works are currently making the situation around Addenbrookes even worse than usual - though we've then got the delights of the Histon Road and Milton Road multi-year works about to begin, which will probably destroy traffic flows in the north of the city for the forseeable future).
 

D365

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There are of course about 20 different councils/groups/organisations/consultants that continue to 'investigate' how to solve travel issues and churn out pie-in-the-sky reports from time to time, which is a good way of burning through money without achieving much of anything worthwhile.

OT but I'm attending a talk tonight that is supposed to be relevant to the proposed "Cambridge Autonomous Metro" - case in point.
 

eastdyke

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Doesn't beggar my belief, unfortunately. In my opinion, the last 20-ish years in Cambridgeshire, and Cambridge in particular, have been a textbook example of doing occasional bits of stuff without any logical thought as to how it all fits together. Joined-up thinking doesn't seem to be done around here, any more than we have a joined-up transport network.
There are of course about 20 different councils/groups/organisations/consultants that continue to 'investigate' how to solve travel issues and churn out pie-in-the-sky reports from time to time, which is a good way of burning through money without achieving much of anything worthwhile.
Proposals that are either not feasible or that are not affordable tend not to progress. When both those apply then they don't get further than the talking. You are right Cambridge has had a lot of that.
For rail, Cambridge continues to benefit from P7/P8 and Cambridge North has been built, projects that fit in very well indeed with future plans.
 

camflyer

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I think severe congestion is more consistent and reliable in the Addenbrookes area. The Science Park is more variable - it can be more-or-less ok, or it can be a complete disaster. I'm not sure adding extra traffic on Milton Road (the only vehicular access to Cambridge North) was/is exactly a good plan, however, especially as the Cowley Road/Science Park junction is, to put it nicely, a bit of a shambles.

The whole area around Milton Rd/Cowley Rd junction needs flattening and building from scratch otherwise I dread to think what things will be like when the Cambridge North and waterworks developments are complete. As you say, having a single road in and out of the site is asking for trouble.

There are a lot of business and academic link between the Science Park and Addenbrookes sites but trying to get from one to the other ontime for a meeting is next to impossible without leaving a couple of hours safety margin. If Cambridge South can really connect the two biggest growth areas of the city then it will be worth every penny.
 

cle

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What might be a theoretical frequency of through trains between Cambridge North and South?

I could definitely see four tracking from South to 'Central' being very useful, and enabling parallel running and pathing options. I could also see another platform at North too, there is space and already running lines.
 

Class 170101

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Example: Milton Keynes - Cambridge South - over the bridge - Stansted Airport.

Not sure XC will stop there, they don't stop at Cambridge North today. So you would have to hope the connections work well with the Norwich to Stansted service.
 

PG

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There are of course about 20 different councils/groups/organisations/consultants that continue to 'investigate' how to solve travel issues and churn out pie-in-the-sky reports from time to time, which is a good way of burning through money without achieving much of anything worthwhile.
IIRC Ian Walmsley did a piece in Modern Railways taking a swing at various entities which investigate 'this/that or the other problem' and then eventually produce a report which doesn't answer said problem but suggests a further investigation is required.

He concluded that it wasn't in their own interest to reach a conclusion as that would likely mean they'd fulfilled their purpose and thus no further funding would be available so they'd cease to exist - kind of like writing your own P45 :!:
 

eastdyke

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IIRC Ian Walmsley did a piece in Modern Railways taking a swing at various entities which investigate 'this/that or the other problem' and then eventually produce a report which doesn't answer said problem but suggests a further investigation is required.
He concluded that it wasn't in their own interest to reach a conclusion as that would likely mean they'd fulfilled their purpose and thus no further funding would be available so they'd cease to exist - kind of like writing your own P45 :!:
And then there is the so called 'political imperative'.
Minister: Humphrey we could be caught out here. We must avoid at all costs both making a decision and spending any large amount of money. What do we do?
Sir Humphrey: Call for another report Minister?
YES!!
 

eastdyke

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If you live in generic MK suburbia, a taxi/lift/Uber to Bletchley (in effect "Milton Keynes South") to pick up an EWR service may be just as convenient as getting to Milton Keynes Central.
Sorry, yes pedant mode engaged.
I generally think 'how can I do this on public transport?' And from parts like Stony Stratford then I might struggle. I fully take your point for one-off airport runs.
[As we know, EWR is partly conceived as a commuter railway, for whom it needs to be easy to use. But that is for another thread.]
 

camflyer

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They really made a rod for themselves in Newmarket by building houses where the up line and island platform was. I cant see how they could expand Newmarket unless they buy back the old station building and the land in front of it, demolish it and start again.

Yes, if I was given some god-like powers that is the first thing I would do. Newmarket copes OK with a single platform 2 train per hour service but increase that (as planned) to 4 tph and then if the West Curve is ever reopened to allow services to Soham and Ely then the station will really need to expand - and there is an old station building with plentiful land right next door to it. As I understand from reports the main problem is that the ownership of the land and building is a "complex matter" of multiple parties being involved.

If done properly, a redevelopment of the area with a nice station building, parking, local bugs connections would be a fantastic gateway to the town. There's probably even space for a hotel and retail to help fund the work.
 

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