Traffic changes everywhere. Are you saying that if there's a crash on the expressway that it won't affect the traffic? Or if there are roadworks on Dumbarton Road that it won't affect the traffic?
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Ways to improve the First Glasgow Network
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Traffic changes everywhere. Are you saying that if there's a crash on the expressway that it won't affect the traffic? Or if there are roadworks on Dumbarton Road that it won't affect the traffic?
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Missing a point. Obv extreme examples like that will but there's areas where the traffic is the exact same 99.9% of the time and with the example I gave they can be late when there's practically no traffic or hold up. That shows that timetables aren't always realistic
You're missing the point I'm afraid, don't just assume that a bus is late because of the timetable as there is literally hundreds of factors that can make a bus late. If the traffic on a certain part of the route is always bad then there is quite possibly a chance that the bus company has factored that into the timetable, they don't just make them up as they go along.
I'm talking about the bus I use the most so I somehow don't think I'm missing anything. I've used easily thousands of 1s since they've started and genuinely less than 5% of them have been on time when I've got them just before Scotstoun towards the City Centre and still been on time at Glasgow Central. That's just poor timetabling. If something happens that often then something definitely needs to change.
The 1/2/6 at night are extremely odd too. At Clydebank they're due in this order:
6-2-1 but then at my stop it's 1-2-6 yet it's literally the same route and same stops and the 1 is busier than the 2 and 6.
Scotstoun to Clydebank and vice versa on the 1s are different numbers of minutes too so that's another thing that makes no sense. There's some things logic definitely is not applied to and that's just how it is.
It's not poor timetabling, it's more likely that something has held the bus up before you got on it that can't be factored into a timetable. Also, if the 1s have more time heading out of the City than in then there is probably a reason for it. Bus companies don't just add in extra time for the fun of it.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Are you sure on that? Timetable certainly looks like there is recovery time.
From Scotstoun to city centre, it goes from 19 mins first thing, to 21 then 23 and finally 28 mins at peak. Then it goes back to 23 off peak.
In most cases it's still nowhere near enough. Even the early morning ones tend to run a bit late. The 1C isn't as bad as the rest but when it's so many occasions something's definitely not right. Not saying any of this for the fun of it either and frankly I'm done being told I'm wrong when it's a bus I've used way more than anyone on here so I'd know first-hand
It's a bit arrogant to assume that you use the 1 more than anyone on here when you don't know any of our travel patterns or lifestyles.
There's not many who would have used it as much as someone who used it all through their 3 years of college and it's the main bus I use pretty much all of the time now too. That's not arrogance it's just very hard to topple usage as high as that. It's also a bit unneccessary to act like someone is wrong for stating their experience of said bus. I know I'd be right about my own local bus but clearly not according to some
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Woah - you said “The 1/1A/1B are rarely on time off peak let alone at peaks but the timetable doesn't even have any extra minutes at peaks.”
That’s not correct. They clearly do.
Scheduling is a skill and a balance, making sure they get the most out of resources, being realistic and reliable (esp when the schools are off). Clearly, they do try do reflect this on the example you cited.
It is a skill but with the 1s it's done extremely poorly both ways which I'm perfectly entitled to point out. In the morning it doesn't have enough and towards Glasgow at the PM peak there really isn't a difference. Out of Glasgow it's minimal too which backs up my point. If it was out of a handful of journeys then fair enough but when I'm talking about the amount of journeys I've made with how few are on time then there's literally nothing else I can say to point out the problem in it
Exactly! I think he still fails to understand that bus companies can't factor in every single issue into a timetable and that inevitably, buses will and do run late.
That's just completely wrong plus it's not late just once or twice as I also said
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed you are, but not saying they don’t amend times in peak - well, that’s not the case. They up it by 25% but even then, as Colin M points out, things can change day to day.
It’s a lot trickier to do than you seem to appreciate.
I'm not even talking about peak specifically in that example and at no point have I said it's not tricky. When something happens so frequently then something isn't right and it's been every single day. Even add around 3/4 mins and it would maybe make a slight difference. I doubt it would do an awful but it's something. I wasn't saying add loads at any point. Just a hint towards realism of a route
Having had a look at the timetable on First's site, the 750am departure from the bottom of Queen Margaret Drive gets to Argyle Street at 810. The 811 departure from the same location is timetabled to arrive at Argyle Street at 826. That's an extra 5 minutes running time added just to get down the expressway into the city. You said there was no extra time in the peaks, you've been proven wrong, why not just accept it and put this argument to bed?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I’m sorry but you did say “The 1/1A/1B are rarely on time off peak let alone at peaks but the timetable doesn't even have any extra minutes at peaks.”
I missed the extra on the am peaks but the PM ones don't change. It's still 11 mins from Scotstoun to Central and it still doesn't change anything else I've said about constant lateness off peak showing something isn't right. You've constantly ignored that fact. You have a different opinion but being wrong about 1 thing doesn't make the reason for my point any less valid. I find it baffling how 2 people can continually ignore someone who has so much first hand experience of a service and call them wrong instead of seeing their point of view. Say this was the other way around and you had my experience of the 1s but I didn't I wouldn't say you were wrong about it. I'd see where you were coming from. If a service is late so frequently offpeak then timetables need changed. It's almost like it's selectively missing a point....
The 'one' has far bigger issues heading out of the city in the evening peak, Dumbarton Road has an increasing number of points where congestion causes considerable delays to services. Recently when I have been heading west from Scotstoun between 4.30 and 5.30 the buses on the 'one' corridor are normally 10 to 15 minutes late. Getting through Dalmuir is another example where around 5pm services have no chance of maintaining the timetable. Once the hospital and the industrial estate have cleared it does ease off quite quickly but by that time the damage has been done. Unfortunately, however I don't see how it can be fixed without investment in significant priority infrastructure improvements, to manage the timetable would require extra buses being fed in on the other side of the congestion.
Scotstoun has been horrendous to get through for as long as I can remember tbh. Anytime from about 4ish to half 6 can be problematic. From the City Centre there's a few 1s that always seem to be late from leaving Osborne St too. The 16:59 1C from Central used to come with the 17:17 1C quite a lot and the 1 after that 16:59 1C tends to be late a lot too. The problem with Scotstoun is the amount of cars that turn up streets off of Dumbarton Road and as there's only 1 lane it backs up everything. As the 2 and 6 are late a lot too they then start tripping over them all the way into Clydebank from Scotstoun West. Seen it a few times where there ends up 4/5 1s together at Clydebank. Not used it west of Clydebank at the evening peak for a while but when I have they've turned up 15/20 mins late at Clydebank and never recovered. The main thing I can think of with the timetable is adding 3/4 mins into Glasgow and then at least 5/6 mins out so all that would need to happen is the timetable is pushed back a little and not having to be massively changed. I doubt they'd ever split the 1s at Dumbarton but even that would maybe help
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
This is the main problem. You can put in additional time into the schedules but without bus priority and enforcement, you're subject to the whims of the traffic on any one day. Bus companies DO try to make schedules achievable but it's a balance and you can never second guess when some courier van sits in a bus stop, hazards on, whilst delivering someone's Amazon parcel, or a set of temporary traffic lights appears like Brigadoon.
To choose another example (picked at random), look at the 60/60A. From Killermont Bridge to Renfrew St, it takes 17 mins first thing in the morning when the roads are clear. By 0630, it's 22 mins, and by 0730, it's got 27 mins - they've added 10 mins to cope with peak hour traffic. As per the 1, the evening service has less extra time added but that's because the school run (that affects the morning peak) is usually done by 1600.
Vehicle scheduling is one of those "how hard can it be" sorts of things that, in reality, is much more difficult. That said, if people are continually vexed at the lateness of the service, they can always get the TC to investigate should they get no joy from the operator.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It seems to be the First Glasgow way in that they add more into the morning peak journeys than the evening, as the school run and the evening rushhour don't coincide to the same extent as in the morning.
Again at random, the 6 from EK to Hope Street journey duration goes from 1h03 to 1h09 to 1h12, 1h13, 1h14 to finally taking 1h19 at the worst point.
Going back in the afternoon, they put an extra 10 mins from about 1530 onwards so a lot less nuanced.
I think the thing with Glasgow and why that happens is the PM peak is certainly wider than the AM one. There's certain routes like the 1s, 18, 61 etc that have increased loads from around 2/3pm til 7/8pm and beyond. I definitely think the PM peak is harder to get right on a wider timescale too. I think for some routes the length of them is too big to stay remotely reliable. There's some services under 90 mins that are unreliable like the 75 but it's the majority of longer ones that are the worst with the 6 being right up there. I remember when they were splitting a lot of routes and then it just seemed to stop happening. If there were more logical areas outside the city centre I'm sure we would see more splitting of routes. Definitely ones like the 3, 6, 8 and 90 could do with it. Main road congestion doesn't help on top of their route length and it's why they're becoming less used especially the 6, 8 and 90. Even back in the 66 days before Simplicity it was so much busier than the 6 is now but I don't blame people for not using them.
Reliability on the 1s showing what I was discussing the other day. Typical when the 1/1A/1B are every 30 mins individually.
The first 1A would have been due around 4:30/4:32, 1 at 4:40 and the 1B would have been around 4:52. The A82 and a tight schedule as it is from Old Kilpatrick eastbound don't help though.
The first 1A would have been due around 4:30/4:32, 1 at 4:40 and the 1B would have been around 4:52. The A82 and a tight schedule as it is from Old Kilpatrick eastbound don't help though.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Ok - so what was causing that delay?
Would probably be the A82 if anything either that or roadworks somewhere. It's pretty rare for a Friday to be like that but it does happen from time to time. There was a 1 running 20 mins late when I was heading into the City Centre just before 1pm though and others running around 10 mins late so could just have built up through the day
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That's my earlier point
If it's "pretty rare for a Friday" then how can an operator construct timetables? Unless you build in an extra 10 mins and then have to wait time all along the route?
It's a scourge at this time of year as budgets get focussed on to be used up. I've experienced 3 sets of temporary lights today - none were there last Friday.
I should have been clearer with "pretty rare for a friday" I mean that it's fairly normal for them to be 10/15 mins late but not 30/35 mins on a Friday. Yeah there's of roadworks popping up here lately especially in the city centre. The main set of roadworks affecting the 1s near me have gladly finished though so it's brought the delays down to 10/15 max 99% of the time instead of 35/40 mins during the works
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes but you can't legislate for every issue.
Surely with this consistent issue, have the TC not been dragging FG up in front of them?
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