Scottish Independence

[GusB]

My main concern with Scottish independence is: where will we get our prime ministers from?

https://www.scottishfield.co.uk/living/ten-prime-ministers-who-were-made-in-scotland/

We'll let you have Broon back if you really want

 

[Struner]

My main concern with Scottish independence is: where will we get our prime ministers from?

https://www.scottishfield.co.uk/living/ten-prime-ministers-who-were-made-in-scotland/

We meaning us Englanders?
Oh dear...

 

[DaleCooper]

We meaning us Englanders?
Oh dear...

We meaning the Welsh, Northern Irish and English.

Did you not understand I was paying a compliment to the Scots and their often disproportionate contribution to the United Kingdom, not just in politics but science, the arts etc.?

 

[Struner]

Sorry, no I didn’t. But you’re quite right of course. What would the UK amount to without Scotland?
So that’s the real reason for the opposition to independence for Scotland.

 

[Struner]

A very good Burns night to all of you!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My main concern with Scottish independence is: where will we get our prime ministers from?

https://www.scottishfield.co.uk/living/ten-prime-ministers-who-were-made-in-scotland/

I wouldn't worry. I believe England has an excellent Prime Minister training college located about a mile north of Windsor town centre, which should be sufficient to provide all our Prime Ministers for decades to come.

 

[swt_passenger]

Unless Barrow desperately wanted them I can’t see any clamour to move the missile boats south. Don’t forget one of the biggest issues is the storage depot which needs to be large (look on a map how big RNAD Coulport is), have a dock and be within an hour but not too close to the subs base.
Plymouth might demand the attack subs come south.
Shipbuilding would be a more political issue, but the possible answer might be building in sections so the work can be shared across the border.

I also think consolidation of conventional frigate/destroyer shipbuilding on the Clyde was purely a political decision. Building the carriers at Rosyth was Hobson’s choice, as they needed the size of the dry dock.

Closure of the Clyde yards was always just too difficult, but the likes of Swan Hunter, Cammell Laird, and Vosper Thorneycroft weren’t the sole industrial employers in their respective areas.

I’m sure surface shipbuilding could be re-established somewhere in England if absolutely necessary.

 

[Meerkat]

I also think consolidation of conventional frigate/destroyer shipbuilding on the Clyde was purely a political decision. Building the carriers at Rosyth was Hobson’s choice, as they needed the size of the dry dock.

Closure of the Clyde yards was always just too difficult, but the likes of Swan Hunter, Cammell Laird, and Vosper Thorneycroft weren’t the sole industrial employers in their respective areas.

I’m sure surface shipbuilding could be re-established somewhere in England if absolutely necessary.

I think the accusation was less about the choice of Rosyth for the carriers being political it was that building them at all was political as then they would have to be built at Rosyth....which just happened to be in Gordon Browns constituency....
The Type 31s might end up being assembled in Birkenhead

 

[najaB]

I think the accusation was less about the choice of Rosyth for the carriers being political it was that building them at all was political as then they would have to be built at Rosyth....which just happened to be in Gordon Browns constituency....

Which other dry docks could they have been built in?

 

[Meerkat]

Which other dry docks could they have been built in?

Maybe I was unclear.
Rosyth was the only sensible place to build them.
But there was an accusation that Gordon Brown only gave the green light to build them at all because if they were they would be built in his constituency.

 

[najaB]

Maybe I was unclear.
Rosyth was the only sensible place to build them.
But there was an accusation that Gordon Brown only gave the green light to build them at all because if they were they would be built in his constituency.

I understand that, the question was where else could they have been built? Not to you, specifically though.

 

[Meerkat]

I understand that, the question was where else could they have been built? Not to you, specifically though.

They could have built a new dock somewhere

 

[najaB]

They could have built a new dock somewhere

The "business case" for the carriers was marginal already. Then throw in a half billion pounds or so to replicate already existing facilities...

Anyone who made that argument needs their head examined.

 

[furnessvale]

The "business case" for the carriers was marginal already. Then throw in a half billion pounds or so to replicate already existing facilities...

Anyone who made that argument needs their head examined.

All this seems a bit academic. As long as Scotland is part of the UK then Scotland's resources form an integral part of UK defence, including its shipbuilding and deep lochs.

Should Scotland leave the UK then rUK will build, base and service its military ships within rUK.

 

[SWTCommuter]

I understand that, the question was where else could they have been built? Not to you, specifically though.

This article about dry docks that could accommodate the carriers may be of interest.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/dry-docking-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers-what-are-the-options/

Having built the ships and won the first docking contract, Rosyth looks in pole position to be the choice for all future dry docking of the aircraft carriers. The site benefits from its heritage as a naval dockyard, modern facilities, good security, and an experienced workforce. However the access for large ships is poor and its long term future is uncertain. Entry and exit for the QEC into the basin at Rosyth is a very demanding operation. When HMS Queen Elizabeth left her birthplace in June 2017 there was a narrow window of just 6 days during that month when the tidal conditions were suitable. Eleven tugs were needed to make a carefully orchestrated move that could only be done in good visibility and light winds.

Possible alternatives to Rosyth are:
Inchgreen Dry Dock, Greenock (Cammell Laird)
Seaton Port, Hartlepool (Able UK)
Belfast Dry Dock (Harland and Wolff)
Birkenhead (Cammell Laird)
Proposed new dry dock at Portsmouth

 

[najaB]

This article about dry docks that could accommodate the carriers may be of interest.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/dry-docking-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers-what-are-the-options/


Possible alternatives to Rosyth are:
Inchgreen Dry Dock, Greenock (Cammell Laird)
Seaton Port, Hartlepool (Able UK)
Belfast Dry Dock (Harland and Wolff)
Birkenhead (Cammell Laird)
Proposed new dry dock at Portsmouth

I believe that the dry dock requirements for construction were quite different to those for maintenance. Could well be wrong though. I suspect that only Harland and Wolf would have been suitable.

 

[GrimShady]

Inchgreen is falling to bits plus the cranes were demolished a few years back.

 

[najaB]

Inchgreen is falling to bits plus the cranes were demolished a few years back.

Also, the dock looks to be about 10m shorter than the ships.

Edit: Just checked, the quoted length is 305m and width of 45m vs the carriers at 290mx39m - so they could fit, just.

 

[Meerkat]

If Rosyth was tricky (50cm clearance below?) as new wont it be

Also, the dock looks to be about 10m shorter than the ships.

Edit: Just checked, the quoted length is 305m and width of 45m vs the carriers at 290mx39m - so they could fit, just.

You have to have space to work on the things!

 

[GrimShady]

Also, the dock looks to be about 10m shorter than the ships.

Edit: Just checked, the quoted length is 305m and width of 45m vs the carriers at 290mx39m - so they could fit, just.

It depends on what they want to do. If the clearances aren't there then you'll struggle with getting heavy machinery to the dock bottom. Things like deploy stabiliser fins and removing the propeller shafts becomes impossible.

As much as I'd like to see work return to the Lower Clyde, it just isn't set up for it anymore. Is there even any machine shops left?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1244204541798686724

Scottish parliament voting intention(s):
Constituency:
SNP: 51% (+8)
CON: 26% (-)
LAB: 14% (-5)
LDEM: 6% (-2)

Regional:
SNP: 48% (+10)
CON: 26% (-)
LAB: 13% (-5)
LDEM: 6% (-3)
GRN: 6% (-)

Support for SNP in the Holyrood elections next year puts them on a massive landslide, however support for seperation at No 51% and Yes 49%.

Any thoughts on these numbers? Seems that the SNP vote is going up as Labour continues to go below rock bottom. Therefore, not essentially an increase votes for a second referendum mandate. Would Scottish Labour's fortunes pick up with Starmer in power?

 

[Meerkat]

Can’t imagine independence looks very appealing when facing a big recession and a collapsed oil price, even if it’s what you want in the long run

 

[Journeyman]

I'm pretty sure the current crisis sets back independence quite a few years at least.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm pretty sure the current crisis sets back independence quite a few years at least.

I would suggest that even Nicola Sturgeon must come to that sensible conclusion.

 

[Butts]

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1244204541798686724

Support for SNP in the Holyrood elections next year puts them on a massive landslide, however support for seperation at No 51% and Yes 49%.

Any thoughts on these numbers? Seems that the SNP vote is going up as Labour continues to go below rock bottom. Therefore, not essentially an increase votes for a second referendum mandate. Would Scottish Labour's fortunes pick up with Starmer in power?

I doubt it very much - Independence is not exactly a hot topic of conversation up here at the moment !!

 

[yorksrob]

Support for SNP in the Holyrood elections next year puts them on a massive landslide, however support for seperation at No 51% and Yes 49%.

I'm sure that split sounds familiar from somewhere ?

 

[Journeyman]

I'm sure that split sounds familiar from somewhere ?

This is the absolutely massive problem that will occur if another Scottish independence referendum is held. Whichever way it goes, it's likely to be incredibly close, which will make it enormously divisive and extremely difficult to gain losers' consent.

 

[najaB]

This is the absolutely massive problem that will occur if another Scottish independence referendum is held. Whichever way it goes, it's likely to be incredibly close...

Which is why the SNP is best not to push for a referendum until they are reasonably sure of a clear majority. Anything less than 55/45 is asking for years of strife, even 60/40 would be risky.

 

[Journeyman]

Which is why the SNP is best not to push for a referendum until they are reasonably sure of a clear majority. Anything less than 55/45 is asking for years of strife, even 60/40 would be risky.

Overwhelming majority support for independence will never happen. I can't ever see it reaching 60/40.

 

[najaB]

Overwhelming majority support for independence will never happen. I can't ever see it reaching 60/40.

Never is a long time...

It's unlikely in the near future though, I agree.