Northern services comprised of CAF allocated for Double Units

[Jamesrob637]

As the title suggests really.

I know 07:48 Wilmslow to Liverpool Lime Street is scheduled for a 6-car 195, and a few Blackpool to Hazel Grove and Airport are scheduled for a 6-car 331, however does anybody have an updated list and how many coaches? Maybe best keeping weekdays and weekends to a separate reply if there are many on weekends, or will be moving forward.

 

[JonathanH]

As the title suggests really.

I know 07:48 Wilmslow to Liverpool Lime Street is scheduled for a 6-car 195, and a few Blackpool to Hazel Grove and Airport are scheduled for a 6-car 331, however does anybody have an updated list and how many coaches? Maybe best keeping weekdays and weekends to a separate reply if there are many on weekends, or will be moving forward.

Why don't you try doing a snapshot of current services shown as having more than 3 cars using http://iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger/ at key stations? Then post the results.

The formations are shown if you look at the "CIS summary widescreen" view.
http://iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger/rendercissod.asp?file=302492.xml&width=full&graphic=1

 

[anti-pacer]

I wonder why a 195 is used on that Wilmslow-Liverpool service, given all that route is under the wires. Seems an odd allocation.

 

[Bovverboy]

I wonder why a 195 is used on that Wilmslow-Liverpool service, given all that route is under the wires. Seems an odd allocation.

It isn't all under the wires, it goes CLC route.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the list for Manchester Piccadilly right now it looks like the 2H02 0632 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and 1N53 0742 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North due through Manchester Piccadilly at 0758 and 0801 respectively are both 6 car. Then also 1Y54 0653 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport due at 0818 so there are three such trains to start off the list.

 

[Bovverboy]

I wonder why a 195 is used on that Wilmslow-Liverpool service, given all that route is under the wires. Seems an odd allocation.

It isn't all under the wires, it goes CLC route.

For the record, as far as I'm aware the only 195-operated journeys which currently run entirely under wires are the following.
0337 SuX Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport (via Chat Moss)
0912 SuO Preston - Manchester Airport
In both instances, the relevant unit then goes on to a non-electrified route.

 

[4REP]

Why are northern always short of electric units given that there are now 331's and 319's also 323's west of the pennines? we seem to get electrification done and cascade of electric units etc but still have diagrammed diesel units. Can be said for other areas of the country too eg 158s on Lymington Branch.

 

[notlob.divad]

For the record, as far as I'm aware the only 195-operated journeys which currently run entirely under wires are the following.
0337 SuX Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport (via Chat Moss)
0912 SuO Preston - Manchester Airport
In both instances, the relevant unit then goes on to a non-electrified route.

0337 SuX Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Airport (via Chat Moss) - also has to be able to divert via CLC for night time engineering possesions. Hence why it has no scheduled stops between Liverpool and Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Looking at the list for Manchester Piccadilly right now it looks like the 2H02 0632 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and 1N53 0742 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North due through Manchester Piccadilly at 0758 and 0801 respectively are both 6 car. Then also 1Y54 0653 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport due at 0818 so there are three such trains to start off the list.

Add 07:23 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove to that list (due through Piccadilly at 08:48)

 

[BenW390Fan]

According to iris rail, 09:16 Lime Street - Manchester Airport is formed of 6 coaches

 

[Jamesrob637]

According to iris rail, 09:16 Lime Street - Manchester Airport is formed of 6 coaches

That's the return of 07:48 Wilmslow to Liverpool avoiding Manchester Airport. Can't see that being very full on an average weekday.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Looking at the list for Manchester Piccadilly right now it looks like the 2H02 0632 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and 1N53 0742 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North due through Manchester Piccadilly at 0758 and 0801 respectively are both 6 car. Then also 1Y54 0653 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport due at 0818 so there are three such trains to start off the list.

That's very positive indeed - in summer this year, I may come up to Manchester and stay for a few nights. I'll hopefully therefore be able to visit one of my relatives in Blackpool.

If I do then I'll opt for 1N53 from Manchester Piccadilly on a weekday. A 6-car 331 has to be the biggest best train on this service since TPExpress days!

 

[Thomas6187]

1Y67 1958 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport, in theory, should be booked as a double 331. When it gets to the Airport, one half forms 1N67 2143 Airport-Blackpool and other forms 1N68 2234 Airport-Blackpool

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is anything booked for 7 or 8-car 331 or only ECS?

 

[JonathanH]

Is anything booked for 7 or 8-car 331 or only ECS?

Too long for Salford Crescent and Oxford Road.

 

[JonathanH]

1N58 1245 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North is another six-car shown, presumably a later working of one of the peak ones above.

 

[Llama]

1Y67 1958 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport, in theory, should be booked as a double 331. When it gets to the Airport, one half forms 1N67 2143 Airport-Blackpool and other forms 1N68 2234 Airport-Blackpool

Yes it is booked as 2*3-car 331, diagrams AN804 and AN813.

 

[Bovverboy]

Is anything booked for 7 or 8-car 331 or only ECS?

Too long for Salford Crescent and Oxford Road.

A 7-car 331 would easily fit in P2/P3/P4 at Oxford Road.

 

[Llama]

Pretty sure it wouldn't, the longest platform at Oxford Rd is platform 4 at 162m, a three car 331 is 71.41m and a four car is 94.76m.

 

[Bovverboy]

Pretty sure it wouldn't, the longest platform at Oxford Rd is platform 4 at 162m, a three car 331 is 71.41m and a four car is 94.76m.

You're right, of course, I presumed that a 7-car 331 would be shorter than an 8-car 350, and I see that it isn't.

 

[Llama]

Yes, 350s are 20m per car, I remember being surprised at that when I realised it. Driving cars of Northern's CAF units are over 24m long, intermediate vehicles over 23m, so the difference in length compared to 350s etc is quite a lot. A six car rake of 331s feels enormous when changing ends compared to what we're used to!

 

[Mathew S]

A 7-car 331 would easily fit in P2/P3/P4 at Oxford Road.

If you ever see one of the 6-car Hazel Grove workings, they only just fit in Oxford Road, and I do mean just - there's a few feet leeway at the most, from what I've seen.

 

[175001]

0632 Man Vic-Leeds is booked for 2x195/0 and they stay together for most of the day I believe

 

[VT 390]

Don't know if it is always a double on Saturdays but I saw the 10:16 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport at Warrington West last Saturday and it was a double (2+2) 195.

 

[JonathanH]

1142 Leeds to Chester formed on 195015+195009 today.

 

[Bovverboy]

Don't know if it is always a double on Saturdays but I saw the 10:16 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport at Warrington West last Saturday and it was a double (2+2) 195.

I've checked this out and it would appear that things changed from 21 December (i.e. the first Saturday of the current timetable). The scheduled routine is now that 1H40 (0337 Liverpool - Airport) combines at the Airport with 5F90 (0507 Newton Heath - Airport ECS) to form 1F90 (0551 Airport - Liverpool). This brings Saturdays into line with Mondays to Fridays and both units are presumably booked 195/0. This diagram encompasses the 1016 Liverpool - Airport.
Unfortunately out of the seven Saturdays of the current timetable, only two have seen things run to plan.
21 December & 4 January: 1H40 cancelled
11 January & 1 February: 5F90 cancelled
18 January: 5F90 left Newton Heath about half an hour behind schedule, and was terminated at Piccadilly 33L. This was still in time to couple to the 0551 ex-Airport, but it doesn't seem to have done, and I don't know what ultimately happened to it.
28 December & 25 January: Diagram ran as scheduled

 

[Jamesrob637]

My 19:14 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport is 3-car instead of 4 - is this booked a pair of 195/0? It's a 3-car 195 tonight.

 

[Bovverboy]

My 19:14 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport is 3-car instead of 4 - is this booked a pair of 195/0? It's a 3-car 195 tonight.

The 1914 ex-Liverpool is on the same diagram as the 1016, see above. So today 5F90 was cancelled and 1F90 would have been formed from the unit off 1H40, which was presumably a 195/1, although I haven't traced the diagram through (i.e. to check if there have been any changeovers).

 

[Dspatula]

1Y67 1958 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport, in theory, should be booked as a double 331. When it gets to the Airport, one half forms 1N67 2143 Airport-Blackpool and other forms 1N68 2234 Airport-Blackpool

1Y91 from Barrow forms 1N68 to Blackpool North usually a 195/1 these days. As far as I'm aware the 331 doubles, of which there should be 4 Monday to Saturday, stay as such throughout the day unless there's a fault, the 0613 and 1516 from Liverpool are both supposed to be 2x 195/1 there and back and as Bovverboy already said from 1F90 on that should be a pair of 195/0s. I've also seen is a pair of 331s on Blackpool- Manchester Airport on Sunday 25th which is the first time I've seen a double on a Sunday.

 

[Bovverboy]

1Y67 1958 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport, in theory, should be booked as a double 331. When it gets to the Airport, one half forms 1N67 2143 Airport-Blackpool and other forms 1N68 2234 Airport-Blackpool

Yes it is booked as 2*3-car 331, diagrams AN804 and AN813.

1Y91 from Barrow forms 1N68 to Blackpool North usually a 195/1 these days. As far as I'm aware the 331 doubles, of which there should be 4 Monday to Saturday, stay as such throughout the day unless there's a fault

I haven't witnessed any of the above workings since the timetable change, but RTT seems to support what Thomas6187 and Llama are saying, i.e. 1Y67 splits into 1N67 and 1N68. 1Y91 returns as 1C50 (2210 Airport - Barrow), as it always has, and 1U83 (1855 Windermere - Airport), which used to return as 1N68, now goes ECS to Victoria as 5J83, where, if I'm reading things correctly, it couples to another 195 and goes ECS to Neville Hill. If 1Y91 returned as 1N68, what would form 1C50?