LNER to retain some Class 91s & Mk4 sets for a bit longer

[385001]

It looks like we'll be able to catch a ride on these for a bit longer according to this tweet from LNER. Retained until they get their new order?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1222540451988766721

If you’re a fan of our IC225 trains, you can continue to enjoy them for a bit longer. We are retaining a number of them in order to deliver all of the benefits of our Dec 2021 timetable plans.

 

[Pacerman99]

Reported on the Class 91 Appreciation Group Facebook page that LNER are now planning to keep some sets for the December 2021 timetable!

 

[Pacerman99]

It looks like we'll be able to catch a ride on these for a bit longer according to this tweet from LNER. Retained until they get their new order?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1222540451988766721

Beat me to it! Brilliant News! I wonder if they will be reduced to 7 carriages as per the original idea?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It looks like we'll be able to catch a ride on these for a bit longer according to this tweet from LNER. Retained until they get their new order?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1222540451988766721

Absolutely thrilled by this. Never been a huge fan of locomotives, but the 91s are a huge exception. I assume they’ll be staying at least until the additional fleet for LNER arrives, and they haven’t even been ordered yet, so we should have them for a good while!

 

[hexagon789]

It looks like we'll be able to catch a ride on these for a bit longer according to this tweet from LNER. Retained until they get their new order?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1222540451988766721

Reported on the Class 91 Appreciation Group Facebook page that LNER are now planning to keep some sets for the December 2021 timetable!

Some of the best news in a while, but the reasons for doing so are very sensible. If they can hold onto sets to enable the new timetable to be brought in as planned while awaiting additional trains then the likelihood of being able to successfully adopt that new timetable without stock issues has got to higher and that's quite commendable.

 

[Marton]

Great news.

I just hope that LNeR take the opportunity to do a few basic repairs on the seats.

Every journey seems to have a dodgy seat. Arm rests sagging and recline either stuck or not locking are the usual ones.

 

[yorksrob]

I am glad. They're still quite good to travel on.

 

[43096]

I am glad. They're still quite good to travel on.

Miles ahead of their replacements.

(This written on 801220...)

 

[yorksrob]

Miles ahead of their replacements.

(This written on 801220...)

It's interesting that this was the plan some time ago, then it went quiet, now it looks like it might happen again.

 

[route101]

What is the next order ?

 

[jh64]

What is the next order ?

Read on here a few months ago that they wanted more sets after the complete delivery of the 800 and 801s. More Azumas for a standard fleet and some more carriages to extend some of the current five cars would be simplest, but it'd probably have to go out for competitive tender as it wouldn't be a run-on of the IEP order.

 

[randyrippley]

So whats the knock-on effect in the cascade?
Who goes short of stock?

 

[Rhydgaled]

So whats the knock-on effect in the cascade?
Who goes short of stock?

Does anyone go short of stock? LNER aren't retaining all the IC225s, only some of them so there is still some stock going off lease for cascade elsewhere and I don't think all the mark 4s were spoken for with planned cascades anyway.

 

[43096]

Read on here a few months ago that they wanted more sets after the complete delivery of the 800 and 801s. More Azumas for a standard fleet and some more carriages to extend some of the current five cars would be simplest, but it'd probably have to go out for competitive tender as it wouldn't be a run-on of the IEP order.

Only Hitachi would bother bidding though.

 

[Mikey C]

It looks like we'll be able to catch a ride on these for a bit longer according to this tweet from LNER. Retained until they get their new order?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1222540451988766721

Amusing that the person running their Twitter account can't deny that the IC225s have nicer seats!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm not gonna lie - I'm not entirely enthusiastic about this to be honest. I've not been on one - they maybe nice trains but my concern is they're prone to eating the wires. When they do, I believe it sometimes takes up to 5 hours to get a 91 going again - with the Azumas, theres the diesel engines (more on the 800's than 801's) for backup.

Also look at the July 2019 heatwave when passengers I understand were stuck in baking Mark 4 coaches for at least 2 hours. LNER said the Azumas basically would be better in the heatwave.

I'm hoping the retention of IC225's won't be for too long into the December 2021 timetable.

So I apologise if I'm on my own here but retaining some 225's in the long-term isn't a particularly good idea - unless of course it's until they have sufficient and a full fleet of Azumas.

If I can, I'll try and get a trip on a 91 - I've waited since 2 years ago to try one out basically!

 

[Helvellyn]

I'm hoping the retention of IC225's won't be for too long into the December 2021 timetable.

So I apologise if I'm on my own here but retaining some 225's in the long-term isn't a particularly good idea - unless of course it's until they have sufficient and a full fleet of Azumas.

They need more trains if the December 2021 timetable isn't going to involve a significant number of 5-car Azuma services.

Lead times means they won't have new trains in time. So keeping stock crew are trained on makes sense,

It will also Azuma modifications, e.g fitting additional luggage racks.

All in all a sensible win until new stock is delivered.

 

[hexagon789]

but my concern is they're prone to eating the wires.

Are they? Is it not simply that the ECML OLE was done to a tight budget and isn't as robust as it could be - hence more frequent dewirements than say the WCML, is it actually specific to 91s?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Are they? Is it not simply that the ECML OLE was done to a tight budget and isn't as robust as it could be - hence more frequent dewirements than say the WCML, is it actually specific to 91s?

That never crossed my mind about the tight budget - I remember hearing somewhere probably on TV that money was tight in British Rail days.

I did forget about the Azumas luggage racks being modified.

So actually yes a sensible idea - I bet if they were gone in the middle of Azumas luggage racks being modified that passengers would say something like they should have kept the 91's !

 

[bramling]

It looks like we'll be able to catch a ride on these for a bit longer according to this tweet from LNER. Retained until they get their new order?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1222540451988766721

Superb news. Here’s hoping that they will be sufficiently thickly spread that it will be possible to easily adjust travel plans in order to use them in preference to the Azumas.

 

[swt_passenger]

Superb news. Here’s hoping that they will be sufficiently thickly spread that it will be possible to easily adjust travel plans in order to use them in preference to the Azumas.

The full timetable track access application had them dedicated to Edinburgh fasts, IIRC, so not much use for most intermediate stations except Newcastle...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would be great for them to have fixed diagrams so we would know immediately what services they were booked to work each day.

 

[Seehof]

Does anybody know exactly how many and what services they will be used on? All these different length and types of trains that LNER will have is going to lead to increased inflexibility with regard to seat reservations if there has to be service alterations!

 

[route101]

I'm not gonna lie - I'm not entirely enthusiastic about this to be honest. I've not been on one - they maybe nice trains but my concern is they're prone to eating the wires. When they do, I believe it sometimes takes up to 5 hours to get a 91 going again - with the Azumas, theres the diesel engines (more on the 800's than 801's) for backup.

Also look at the July 2019 heatwave when passengers I understand were stuck in baking Mark 4 coaches for at least 2 hours. LNER said the Azumas basically would be better in the heatwave.

I'm hoping the retention of IC225's won't be for too long into the December 2021 timetable.

So I apologise if I'm on my own here but retaining some 225's in the long-term isn't a particularly good idea - unless of course it's until they have sufficient and a full fleet of Azumas.

If I can, I'll try and get a trip on a 91 - I've waited since 2 years ago to try one out basically!

Give one a try , on your Scotland trip .

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Give one a try , on your Scotland trip .

It's ok - I'll try one to or from London Kings Cross - Peterborough during this year at some point.

 

[WesternLancer]

That never crossed my mind about the tight budget - I remember hearing somewhere probably on TV that money was tight in British Rail days.

I did forget about the Azumas luggage racks being modified.

So actually yes a sensible idea - I bet if they were gone in the middle of Azumas luggage racks being modified that passengers would say something like they should have kept the 91's !

I remember hearing somewhere probably on TV that money was tight in British Rail days.

That's an understatement and a half!!! ECML wiring done on the cheap has been endlessly blamed for all sorts of things. But at least they did it!

Pendulum the other way is why GWR was so costly i suspect (or part of the reason) plus very ugly looking kit - and the overspend kyboshed the rest of the planed electrification programmes.

 

[big all]

I'm not gonna lie - I'm not entirely enthusiastic about this to be honest. I've not been on one - they maybe nice trains but my concern is they're prone to eating the wires. When they do, I believe it sometimes takes up to 5 hours to get a 91 going again - with the Azumas, theres the diesel engines (more on the 800's than 801's) for backup.

Also look at the July 2019 heatwave when passengers I understand were stuck in baking Mark 4 coaches for at least 2 hours. LNER said the Azumas basically would be better in the heatwave.

I'm hoping the retention of IC225's won't be for too long into the December 2021 timetable.

So I apologise if I'm on my own here but retaining some 225's in the long-term isn't a particularly good idea - unless of course it's until they have sufficient and a full fleet of Azumas.

If I can, I'll try and get a trip on a 91 - I've waited since 2 years ago to try one out basically!

Look on the bright side: if you only retain say, 20% of the fleet, you will choose the best locos. So any failures will be reduced.

 

[hexagon789]

Does anybody know exactly how many and what services they will be used on? All these different length and types of trains that LNER will have is going to lead to increased inflexibility with regard to seat reservations if there has to be service alterations!

There were rumours on another forum they would retain as many as FIFTEEN sets for as many as 3 years and dedicated them to Leeds workings plus a few spare sets, but that seems off on two counts - number of sets and the route, Edinburgh surely would be more logical given the generally longer distance between stops.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anybody know exactly how many and what services they will be used on? All these different length and types of trains that LNER will have is going to lead to increased inflexibility with regard to seat reservations if there has to be service alterations!

From the track access application, (TAA), which led to my previous post just above yours:

A small fleet of 225s will be retained beyond May 2020 for deployment mainly on the fast King’s Cross <> Edinburgh services (six rakes of seven Mark IV coaches). Reducing the formation by two Mark IV coaches will allow the 225s to achieve compatible timings with the 800/1 for limited stop services.
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf

Obviously that date for the timetable change has been delayed by some time. On the basis of the TAA I can’t see the retained 225 sets being used as general purpose ‘any route’, for a start they won’t have the passenger capacity...

 

[DarloRich]

Never been a huge fan of locomotives,

That is because you are a millennial and don't know what you are talking about

I'm not gonna lie - I'm not entirely enthusiastic about this to be honest. I've not been on one - they maybe nice trains but my concern is they're prone to eating the wires. When they do, I believe it sometimes takes up to 5 hours to get a 91 going again - with the Azumas, theres the diesel engines (more on the 800's than 801's) for backup.

Also look at the July 2019 heatwave when passengers I understand were stuck in baking Mark 4 coaches for at least 2 hours. LNER said the Azumas basically would be better in the heatwave.

I'm hoping the retention of IC225's won't be for too long into the December 2021 timetable.

So I apologise if I'm on my own here but retaining some 225's in the long-term isn't a particularly good idea - unless of course it's until they have sufficient and a full fleet of Azumas.

If I can, I'll try and get a trip on a 91 - I've waited since 2 years ago to try one out basically!

How can you comment on a train you have never ridden on?1?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

• The class 91 is no more likely to pull the wires down than an 800 ( see the one near Paddington!)
• The time taken to restart service isnt related to the age of the train.
• People being stuck on a train isnt a result of it being an old train.
• Any stuck train is going to get hot after a while. I have been on a Pendolino that was like an oven when it got stuck somewhere.

You are welcome to express your view but it would carry more weight if it was based on experience. Perhaps try a few older trains out before commenting. I have been using them since 1990. They are good, comfortable long distance trains and seeing some of them stay on the ECML is great news. They aren't an HST but they are pretty decent.

I just hope that LNeR take the opportunity to do a few basic repairs on the seats.

Every journey seems to have a dodgy seat. Arm rests sagging and recline either stuck or not locking are the usual ones.

The Mkiv's might get a bit of TLC if they are staying longer. The care and maintenance work has clearly been run down recently.

ECML wiring done on the cheap has been endlessly blamed for all sorts of things. But at least they did it!

it was done to the available budget using the materials and construction techniques of the time.

Look on the bright side: if you only retain say, 20% of the fleet, you will choose the best locos. So any failures will be reduced.

Yes: break up the lame ducks to keep the fleet running.

Superb news. Here’s hoping that they will be sufficiently thickly spread that it will be possible to easily adjust travel plans in order to use them in preference to the Azumas.

Absolutely. I also know where I can get a couple of HST if you fancy. 23 careful owners, full service history and only 4 billion miles per unit. Yours for a very reasonable price.