ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Railperf]

The timetable at current is designed so even a crush loaded 158 can just about keep up (if you ignore huge dwell times perhaps), things are moving in the right direction, but I wonder when we will reach a stage when we can be certain of at least certain paths being HSTs

Yes...another one on its way.

 

[hexagon789]

The timetable at current is designed so even a crush loaded 158 can just about keep up (if you ignore huge dwell times perhaps), things are moving in the right direction, but I wonder when we will reach a stage when we can be certain of at least certain paths being HSTs

As has been mentioned previously, 158s shift quicker off the mark than 170s anyway, so...

It might not matter to him..as he does not use the line on a regular basis. That is just his opinion. If his local train service started to be slowed down because the trains were slower..i am sure it would not be met positively. This is the man that champions the Deltic loco's - trains that were faster than the ones they replaced. Regular users of the Highland Main line want faster and more frequent trains. Losing two minutes to Schlod is just the start. There are further time losses on the way to Perth. Every time the Azuma starts from a station or has to accelerate from a low speed restriction - or power up a gradient..it is losing time compared to the trains it replaced and even more time to the shorter HSTs. Thankfully the timetable is not currently too demanding with plenty of recovery time and pathing allowances to eat in to.

I agree with that, we should not be slowing down services like this even by a few minutes. The Inverness & Aberdeen services are slower now than they were in the 1990s.

 

[Railperf]

As has been mentioned previously, 158s shift quicker off the mark than 170s anyway, so...
.

Hmm ... not sure about that unless you are talking literally about the first 100 yards. But to be fair the 158s are not that much slower

 

[Mordac]

Yes, this is the crazy situation. Scotrail want faster journeys between Glasgow /Edinburgh and Inverness. The short HST's have a higher power to weight ratio and are able to run faster which potentially can be used to shave up to 10 minutes off the journey. Ironically the LNER service will be a few minutes slower through the Highland section. At a time when they are spending billions upgrading the A9, you would have hoped that some investment on the highland main line would allow all services to be speeded up including freight. At least the Azuma's are able to use clean electric power all the way from Stirling to London. But it is a shame they weren't designed with a suitable power to eight ratio to meet the aspiration of faster Perth to Inverness journey times. The tourists won't mind because the views are amazing from the train - and you can enjoy a whiskey too.

I think the Scots would rather they have a whisky!

 

[Railperf]

I think the Scots would rather they have a whisky!

or two...or three

 

[BRX]

Would be interesting to know what the actual fastest possible journey time from Inverness to Perth is - assuming a completely clear run with no signal checks or station stops etc. I imagine a fair bit faster than the timetable?

 

[Railperf]

Would be interesting to know what the actual fastest possible journey time from Inverness to Perth is - assuming a completely clear run with no signal checks or station stops etc. I imagine a fair bit faster than the timetable?

Fastest overall time - based on the fastest recorded start to stop sections Inverness to Aviemore, Aviemore to Kingussies, Kingussie to Pitlochry and Pitlochry to Perth is 1 hr 45 min southbound. Probably appx 1.5 to 2 min could be subtracted by not stopping.
We wait to see what speed improvements will be introduced for the faster HST timetable.

 

[47271]

Would be interesting to know what the actual fastest possible journey time from Inverness to Perth is - assuming a completely clear run with no signal checks or station stops etc. I imagine a fair bit faster than the timetable?

It's not so much the signal checks or the station stops, it's the crosses that mess up the route. Fifteen or twenty minutes can melt away with one delayed crossover.

HSTs or anything else, we can forget fast and reliable passage from one end to the other until money's spent on at least three extra loops.

But what we'll get is an ambitious timetable that's fine in theory but will fall apart in practice.

 

[PG]

It's not so much the signal checks or the station stops, it's the crosses that mess up the route. Fifteen or twenty minutes can melt away with one delayed crossover.

HSTs or anything else, we can forget fast and reliable passage from one end to the other until money's spent on at least three extra loops.

But what we'll get is an ambitious timetable that's fine in theory but will fall apart in practice.

I imagine that the £3 billion TransportRoads Scotland spent dualling the A9 could have paid for 3 loops and then some...

Ah but uncle Alex says its Scotland's Best Ever Railway so that's alright then

 

[kilonewton]

I imagine that the £3 billion TransportRoads Scotland spent dualling the A9 could have paid for 3 loops and then some...

Ah but uncle Alex says its Scotland's Best Ever Railway so that's alright then

Indeed. The logo below made it onto the plaque for one of the bridges rebuilt as part of EGIP. The plaque was remade before installation.

 

[Northhighland]

As a regular user of the train I am not overly bothered about a few minutes here and there. What is important is a predictable reliable service with seats and reservations and a decent catering offering. Get that right first.

yesterday was on LNER down to Perth, like the Azuma more each time, very comfortable quiet and smooth. A very dirty and crowded 170 to Glasgow. On return a decent 170 to Perth and then another very dirty one to INverness.

Why are the interiors allowed to become so dirty on some. Never used to be like that.

 

[47271]

As a regular user of the train I am not overly bothered about a few minutes here and there. What is important is a predictable reliable service with seats and reservations and a decent catering offering. Get that right first.

yesterday was on LNER down to Perth, like the Azuma more each time, very comfortable quiet and smooth. A very dirty and crowded 170 to Glasgow. On return a decent 170 to Perth and then another very dirty one to INverness.

Why are the interiors allowed to become so dirty on some. Never used to be like that.

I don't know about 170s, I suspect that they're on ever tighter turnarounds because of the shortage of stock, but I believe that one of the reasons that HSTs often start service full of litter is because they're too long to be doubled up in a lot of platforms, and have to be in and out more quickly than units. This certainly used to be the case with the 1741 Edinburgh-Inverness HST, which regularly arrived at the platform empty from the depot absolutely filthy and full of rubbish. They were having to send it out of the platform untouched from its previous service because they couldn't let it sit at Waverley for long enough to clean it.

 

[CEN60]

Yes, this is the crazy situation. Scotrail want faster journeys between Glasgow /Edinburgh and Inverness. The short HST's have a higher power to weight ratio and are able to run faster which potentially can be used to shave up to 10 minutes off the journey. Ironically the LNER service will be a few minutes slower through the Highland section. At a time when they are spending billions upgrading the A9, you would have hoped that some investment on the highland main line would allow all services to be speeded up including freight. At least the Azuma's are able to use clean electric power all the way from Stirling to London. But it is a shame they weren't designed with a suitable power to eight ratio to meet the aspiration of faster Perth to Inverness journey times. The tourists won't mind because the views are amazing from the train - and you can enjoy a whiskey too.

"whisky" if in Scotland I hope!

 

[BRX]

It's not so much the signal checks or the station stops, it's the crosses that mess up the route. Fifteen or twenty minutes can melt away with one delayed crossover.

HSTs or anything else, we can forget fast and reliable passage from one end to the other until money's spent on at least three extra loops.

But what we'll get is an ambitious timetable that's fine in theory but will fall apart in practice.

Yes, when I said signal checks I meant things like being stopped in passing loops. Which there should be more of. Instead of more money being spent on the A9.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

As a regular user of the train I am not overly bothered about a few minutes here and there. What is important is a predictable reliable service with seats and reservations and a decent catering offering. Get that right first.

yesterday was on LNER down to Perth, like the Azuma more each time, very comfortable quiet and smooth. A very dirty and crowded 170 to Glasgow. On return a decent 170 to Perth and then another very dirty one to INverness.

Why are the interiors allowed to become so dirty on some. Never used to be like that.

I was having a nosy at Advance Singles yesterday from Edinburgh to Inverness for if I decide on Edinburgh again next year (not right now) and the LNER ones are very cheap!

 

[Railperf]

Yes, when I said signal checks I meant things like being stopped in passing loops. Which there should be more of. Instead of more money being spent on the A9.

Absolutely. But then more loops are not the answer. The HML really needs dualling along more of the route if not wholly.

 

[PG]

Absolutely. But then more loops are not the answer. The HML really needs dualling along more of the route if not wholly.

Indeed it would be wonderful to have the HML dualled but I'm not sure that the Scottish government is going to fund that anytime soon...

 

[RLBH]

Absolutely. But then more loops are not the answer. The HML really needs dualling along more of the route if not wholly.

Additional loops would help, because some of the single line sections are so long that an intermediate loop would allow the crossing to happen in a different place with less waiting. Dual-tracking as much of the route as practical (several tunnels would be challenging) would be better still, and electrifying as well would be ideal.

I wonder how much of that could have been done for half the cost of dualling the A9, considering that the STPR only recommended partial dualling, at about half the cost, and parallel rail improvements.

 

[Railperf]

Additional loops would help, because some of the single line sections are so long that an intermediate loop would allow the crossing to happen in a different place with less waiting. Dual-tracking as much of the route as practical (several tunnels would be challenging) would be better still, and electrifying as well would be ideal.

I wonder how much of that could have been done for half the cost of dualling the A9, considering that the STPR only recommended partial dualling, at about half the cost, and parallel rail improvements.

The problem with loops is that two trains travelling towards each other and having to pass at the loop are both going to encounter caution signals - even if they both perfectly arrive at the same time. So plenty of slow running and possibly even a stop. Does absolute block signalling allow for two trains to enter the loop simultaneously? Or does the first train have to enter the loop and come to a stop first?
Longer sections of dual track would be better.

 

[paul1609]

Additional loops would help, because some of the single line sections are so long that an intermediate loop would allow the crossing to happen in a different place with less waiting. Dual-tracking as much of the route as practical (several tunnels would be challenging) would be better still, and electrifying as well would be ideal.

I wonder how much of that could have been done for half the cost of dualling the A9, considering that the STPR only recommended partial dualling, at about half the cost, and parallel rail improvements.

I've only used the line a few times but have got the impression that the reason that the journey times are so slow is the low line speeds because of the curvature and because of the number of speed restrictions over bridges and culverts rather than the passing moves.

 

[Highland37]

Why not just spend the money allocated to HS2 on the HML? Everyone I know in Inverness wants the A9 dualled, for safety reasons as well as convenience, but also wants a better train service.

 

[hexagon789]

Why not just spend the money allocated to HS2 on the HML? Everyone I know in Inverness wants the A9 dualled, for safety reasons as well as convenience, but also wants a better train service.

Isn't Transport Scotland responsible for any upgrades to the HML, or is it the DfT?

 

[Speed43125]

Why not just spend the money allocated to HS2 on the HML? Everyone I know in Inverness wants the A9 dualled, for safety reasons as well as convenience, but also wants a better train service.

Because HS2 is being funded by the projected profits of the program. Transport between such relatively small cities is not going to generate profit to leverage against funding required. HS2 is criticized for being far too centered a few cities, dualing the HML at the expense of HS2 is never going to track.
Please stop the accusing central government of ignoring people out in the sticks (not you in particular, just in general as is so common nowadays). Rail subsidies are already much higher in Scotland than in England, axing lines in one place for the sake of somewhere (with far fewer beneficiaries) is not viable. We need both, but don't bring other unrelated programs into this discussion.

 

[FtoE]

If safety was really the issue then the A82 would be dualled.
https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/a82-twice-as-bad-as-a9-for-crashes-147006/
https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/a82-twice-as-bad-as-a9-for-crashes-147006/

 

[Struner]

But some people seem to prefer the A82 above the A9 in order to avoid the speed cameras?
Now what kind of driver would that be?

 

[InOban]

Why not just spend the money allocated to HS2 on the HML? Everyone I know in Inverness wants the A9 dualled, for safety reasons as well as convenience, but also wants a better train service.

They want it dualled, but they don't need it. Since the introduction of speed cameras, the accident rate had been drastically reduced.

 

[BRX]

If safety was the issue then there would be a zero tolerance approach to speeding on all roads. And many more stretches of the A82 in particular with overtaking prohibited. And heavy investment in alternative, safer means of transport including rail.

 

[mcmad]

They want it dualled, but they don't need it. Since the introduction of speed cameras, the accident rate had been drastically reduced.

theres not really been a long enough period of use to statistically state that there has or hasn't been any benefit yet despite the usual TS claims.

 

[Highland37]

theres not really been a long enough period of use to statistically state that there has or hasn't been any benefit yet despite the usual TS claims.

Well, actually that is not true and there is also the annecdotal evidence which shows that it is much safer. It's also a hell of a lot more reliable than the railway and the best way to transport freight. Don't get me wrong, I would love the HML to be two track and electrified but until the railway can move closer to anything resembling efficiency and cut costs and also tackle issues over 100 years old (Killiekrankie Tunnel), road is the way to move goods.

 

[47271]

Absolutely. But then more loops are not the answer. The HML really needs dualling along more of the route if not wholly.

I entirely agree, but this thread is about Scotrail HSTs in the here and now and not the Highland Main Line of the imagination. The reality is that we have high powered trains constrained by limitations to the infrastructure, and the only improvements to hand are those that have been made to signalling at Pitlochry and Aviemore. The very least required to maintain resilience is the restoration of three loops, but we don't even have that, never mind dualling.