LNER to retain some Class 91s & Mk4 sets for a bit longer

[Chester1]

Is this an interim measure before arrival of additional 800 series units in 2 to 3 years time or something that they intend to last several years?

 

[hexagon789]

Is this an interim measure before arrival of additional 800 series units in 2 to 3 years time or something that they intend to last several years?

December 2021 is purely referring to the timetable change then, this is when LNER propose to introduce significant changes to speed up services. Up to 12 diagrams (12 sets in traffic plus 3 spare sets) will be retained until then. 225 sets will be retained after then as required to enable greater resilience with the new timetable.

The 225s will remain full length sets and will be captive to the Leeds services allowing simplification in terms of maintenance and driver traction knowledge.

These are the details as I have seen and understood them at the moment, we will have to see precisely how it all pans out.

 

[DarloRich]

The 225s will remain full length sets and will be captive to the Leeds services allowing simplification in terms of maintenance and driver traction knowledge.

suits me

 

[hexagon789]

suits me

Other than the operational simplicity, I'm surprised they will be captive to Leeds and not used on Edinburghs, particularly as full sets given their slower acceleration and the shorter distances between stops on Leeds workings, but hey - any 225s is better than no 225s, right?

 

[DarloRich]

Other than the operational simplicity, I'm surprised they will be captive to Leeds and not used on Edinburghs, particularly as full sets given their slower acceleration and the shorter distances between stops on Leeds workings, but hey - any 225s is better than no 225s, right?

Correct!

 

[Mordac]

That is because you are a millennial and don't know what you are talking about

Pretty sure he's a Zoomer (Gen-Z). By most definitions, the youngest millennials are now 23.

 

[Mag_seven]

The 225s will remain full length sets and will be captive to the Leeds services allowing simplification in terms of maintenance and driver traction knowledge.

I'm surprised they will be captive to Leeds and not used on Edinburghs, particularly as full sets given their slower acceleration and the shorter distances between stops on Leeds workings, but hey - any 225s is better than no 225s, right?

I wonder if the decision to retain some 225 sets for the Leeds route is anything to do with the fact that they will need a substantial proportion of their bi-mode fleet to operate services to Edinburgh due to the delay in the power supply upgrade between Newcastle and Edinburgh? I understand that at certain times of the day only a limited number of services are permitted to operate on electric mode on that stretch until such times as the supply upgrade is complete.

 

[hexagon789]

I wonder if the decision to retain some 225 sets for the Leeds route is anything to do with the fact that they will need a substantial proportion of their bi-mode fleet to operate services to Edinburgh due to the delay in the power supply upgrade between Newcastle and Edinburgh? I understand that at certain times of the day only a limited number of services are permitted to operate on electric mode on that stretch until such times as the supply upgrade is complete.

Wouldn't concentrating 91s there work or is it simply any electric rather than 80x in particular, regardless the plan appears to be that only Leeds and King's Cross crews will retain knowledge on them and presumably it also means no accelerations to Leeds' timings.

 

[fishquinn]

That is because you are a millennial and don't know what you are talking about

Pretty sure he's a Zoomer (Gen-Z). By most definitions, the youngest millennials are now 23.

Exactly what I was going to say
Another Gen-Z here and I much prefer LHCS to units but have a particular dislike to 91s so the news is rather underwhelming for me (although it's undeniable that a mk4 is a much nicer travelling environment, particularly in 1st class).

 

[hexagon789]

In the short term it would seem to be cover for the additional order of 80x for the Edinburgh fast services.Post that, seemingly it's extra capacity, but I suspect eventually more Hitachis will be procured, even if it's a slightly updated design of one

 

[Rikki Lamb]

Pretty sure he's a Zoomer (Gen-Z). By most definitions, the youngest millennials are now 23.

There is no hope for the youth of today if they consider the plastic tosh tossed about these days to be proper trains

As a senior millennial at the age of 34, this is good news as I travel from Wakefield to London alot and have yet to do it on an Azuma. Last Sunday on my way to hospital it was a HST and tomorrow on the way back from hospital it will be a class 180.

Pleased the 91s have a stay of execution on the Leeds services

 

[Prestige15]

There were rumours on another forum they would retain as many as FIFTEEN sets for as many as 3 years and dedicated them to Leeds workings plus a few spare sets, but that seems off on two counts - number of sets and the route, Edinburgh surely would be more logical given the generally longer distance between stops.

There was also some saying around 5 are to be kept for spare sets, peak service and the flying scotsman (with a possible return leg).

We'll just have to wait and see..

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Really good news. I travel several thousand miles a year with LNER and whilst I think the Azuma has some good points, the interior specification, especially in first class is a distinct downgrade.
I do hope that the remaining Mk4s have some TLC lavished on them though. I've found broken seat recline mechanisms and sagging armrests to be all too common of late...

 

[Pacerman99]

December 2021 is purely referring to the timetable change then, this is when LNER propose to introduce significant changes to speed up services. Up to 12 diagrams (12 sets in traffic plus 3 spare sets) will be retained until then. 225 sets will be retained after then as required to enable greater resilience with the new timetable.

The 225s will remain full length sets and will be captive to the Leeds services allowing simplification in terms of maintenance and driver traction knowledge.

These are the details as I have seen and understood them at the moment, we will have to see precisely how it all pans out.

Are 12 diagrams enough to cover all the Leeds services? LNER has also said that the 10 carriage 800/801 formations will be exclusive to the Leeds line, so I'm guessing that will no longer be the case if most Leeds duties are IC225s.

 

[hexagon789]

There was also some saying around 5 are to be kept for spare sets, peak service and the flying scotsman (with a possible return leg).

We'll just have to wait and see..

I haven't seen that rumour, but like you say we just have to see.

Are 12 diagrams enough to cover all the Leeds services? LNER has also said that the 10 carriage 800/801 formations will be exclusive to the Leeds line, so I'm guessing that will no longer be the case if most Leeds duties are IC225s.

Not sure if it's enough, wouldn't some need to remain Azuma for the through workings to Harrogate?

 

[Brissle Girl]

The comment was that they would be dedicated/restricted to Leeds service, which is different from saying that all Leeds services will be Class 91. So questions as to whether there are enough sets to cover all Leeds services are irrelevant.

 

[heedfan]

Not sure if it's enough, wouldn't some need to remain Azuma for the through workings to Harrogate?

Certainly would need Azumas for that as no wires to Harrogate.

 

[hooky3]

would be better if the 91s were on Edinburgh - KGX runs for the busy times like the summer for the sheer luggage space in the DVT

 

[Pacerman99]

The comment was that they would be dedicated/restricted to Leeds service, which is different from saying that all Leeds services will be Class 91. So questions as to whether there are enough sets to cover all Leeds services are irrelevant.

If these 12 diagrams are full, all day workings, and as you said they will be dedicated to Leeds services only, then that may well be enough to cover most, if not all, the Leeds services (barring the Harrogate extentions).

 

[causton]

There is no hope for the youth of today if they consider the plastic tosh tossed about these days to be proper trains

How about we just let people enjoy what they want? Feel free to prefer whatever stock you want (and yes I prefer a 91 to an Azuma!) but hopefully the "youth of today" grow up learning that insulting others is not the way to behave.

After all, if they prefer Azumas, it leaves you more room on your 180!
(I'd rather an Azuma over a 180, the new GC ones have seats that physically hurt to sit in...)

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly would need Azumas for that as no wires to Harrogate.

I knew there was a reason!

I can't believe I overlooked that very obvious issue

 

[Rikki Lamb]

How about we just let people enjoy what they want? Feel free to prefer whatever stock you want (and yes I prefer a 91 to an Azuma!) but hopefully the "youth of today" grow up learning that insulting others is not the way to behave.

After all, if they prefer Azumas, it leaves you more room on your 180!
(I'd rather an Azuma over a 180, the new GC ones have seats that physically hurt to sit in...)

My humour is tongue in cheek and no offence meant and there was no insult actually included!!

I'd actually prefer a pacer to an azuma, I've done the settle to Carlisle on a 142 and suprisingly comfy.

As I catch azumas daily i can safely say their seating hurts considerably more than the new seating on the somewhat terrible and plastic 180s especially as I am recovering major surgery in London at travelling home tomorrow. I'd need more than a rubber ring after the surgery I have had to made a wretched azumas comfy!

I would prefer a 91 but LNER are just not as cheap as GC.

 

[dgl]

There is no hope for the youth of today if they consider the plastic tosh tossed about these days to be proper trains

As a senior millennial at the age of 34, this is good news as I travel from Wakefield to London alot and have yet to do it on an Azuma. Last Sunday on my way to hospital it was a HST and tomorrow on the way back from hospital it will be a class 180.

Pleased the 91s have a stay of execution on the Leeds services

Although as someone who is nearly as old 444's take some beating, an MU they may be but a bloody brilliant one, certinaly not 'plastic trash'!

 

[Helvellyn]

If the Class 91s and Mark 4s are being retained for the Leeds services, does that mean they will operate through to Bradford, Skipton and Harrogate as well?

I also wonder if another reason for dedicating them to this route could be to allow Neville Hill to take on the maintenance? EMR is due to withdraw from there at the end of the year and Hitachi will be gearing up for Bounds Green (like Craigentinny) to switch over fully to Azumas (supporting Doncaster Carr). Neville Hill will have spare capacity.

As to the acceleration concerns if being used on services with many stops could the retained Class 91s be regeared to improve this?

 

[Swimbar]

If the Class 91s and Mark 4s are being retained for the Leeds services, does that mean they will operate through to Bradford, Skipton and Harrogate ?

They operate to Bradford & Skipton now.
No wires to Harrogate so would need to be loco hauled from Leeds which I cant see happening.

 

[hexagon789]

As to the acceleration concerns if being used on services with many stops could the retained Class 91s be regeared to improve this?

They could be regeared, but I doubt they will be and I don't think it would improve the acceleration much dropping the gearing from to 125mph.

 

[35B]

Wouldn't concentrating 91s there work or is it simply any electric rather than 80x in particular, regardless the plan appears to be that only Leeds and King's Cross crews will retain knowledge on them and presumably it also means no accelerations to Leeds' timings.

I believe it's any electric, though I believe that, like for like, an Azuma is more demanding than a 91 due to the power characteristics of the traction kit (same as the Electrostars and Desiros caused issues on the Southern). Don't forget that with the HSTs gone, the Inverness and Aberdeen trains are now electric on that section, while TPE are now running their class 802s on the same piece of railway.

As a Grantham commuter, I welcome this - and might even change my journey times if they get the morning diagrams right!

 

[hexagon789]

I believe it's any electric, though I believe that, like for like, an Azuma is more demanding than a 91 due to the power characteristics of the traction kit (same as the Electrostars and Desiros caused issues on the Southern). Don't forget that with the HSTs gone, the Inverness and Aberdeen trains are now electric on that section, while TPE are now running their class 802s on the same piece of railway.

As a Grantham commuter, I welcome this - and might even change my journey times if they get the morning diagrams right!

So of course that's more trains on electric than before and then there's TPE as well to factor in so I can see why it's become an issue.

I think many people feel that way as well, that they prefer being able to still travel in a 225

 

[dk1]

What about the Harrogate running as the extra 2-hourly fast Leeds & running via Doncaster & calling at Garforth?

 

[CHAPS2034]

From post 28 on this thread

From the track access application, (TAA), which led to my previous post just above yours:

A small fleet of 225s will be retained beyond May 2020 for deployment mainly on the fast King’s Cross <> Edinburgh services (six rakes of seven Mark IV coaches). Reducing the formation by two Mark IV coaches will allow the 225s to achieve compatible timings with the 800/1 for limited stop services.
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf

So how does this square with all the subsequent chitter-chatter about use on captive Leeds services. What am I missing?