EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bantamzen]

Bear sh*ts in wood.

Who is honestly surprised?

This is exactly what people voted for, so the only sympathy I have is for those who have opposed it, continue to do so and have not capitulated because "they lost" and so must "get over it".

It isn't just what the leavers voted for whether they knew it or not, its what the leave campaign wanted all along. Cut our ties with EU regulation, then lower the bar & make a killing (which could be in a literal sense if scientific concerns over the quality of chlorinated chicken are well founded). I'd like to think that the PM's insistence that standards will not be lowered to appease Trump, Pompeo or US farmers, would be upheld, but then history generally shows us that money talks much louder than the people. So then I'd like to think that at the very least the chlorinated crap would be labelled as such, but then history generally shows us that money talks much louder than the people.

And this is on Day -1 of Brexit. Goodness knows what else the world will be dumping on us in the coming years as we try to panic-negotiate dozens of trade deals. It'll be fine they said. They'll be lining up to make brilliant trade deals with us they said. Chlorinated unicorn steak anyone.....??

 

[Esker-pades]

Because when discussing pressure on housing, Grenfell is an example of where we can barely look after people who are already here. Notwithstanding the issue over the cladding, Grenfell was an ageing tower block built to poor standards, for example only having one stairwell, and typical of such poor quality housing with undesirable feasures spread throughout London in particular, and doubtless in other UK cities too. The only reason much of this housing is still in business is because there's too much of it to easily / affordably replace.

Things have come a little way over the last couple of decades with some of the worst estates being rebuilt or substantially modernised, however anyone who remembers places like the Ferrier Estate in Kidbrooke, the Stonebridge Estate in Harlesden or the Aylesbury Estate in Camberwell just a decade or so ago will know how poor some of our housing is.

And then we come back round the circle to the ~38% cut in council budgets under the optional policy of austerity. You have chosen to say that this is because of overpopulation, and not because of countless other reasons.

 

[SteveP29]

why on earth would Europe want to entertain having us back?

Err, for one of the reasons leavers used as a reason for us to leave in the first place, because we put in more than any other country other than Germany and the EU needs our cash, no?

If the pessimistic economic predictions for a Britain outside the EU turn out to be correct

Does it matter, leavers will have their no immigration cos nobody will want to come to this withering island once the financial services centre of Europe relocates to France, Germany or Denmark and the fact we don't manufacture enough to replace that financial sector

I thought it was interesting yesterday that Michael Gove appears to have woken up to that looming threat as he made comments to the media to the effect that politicians are now going to be blamed for things like unemployment as they cannot blame the EU anymore.

He sort of repeated and agreed with that again this morning on BBC Breakfast.
He's probably thinking of excuses to use on Jan 1st 2021 already

 

[AM9]

Today belongs to leavers who voted for whatever reason to exit the EU. I can sit back and watch the unattractive gloatfest that some seem to be wallowing in and wait for that lightbulb moments that will certainly follow when the lies start slapping them in the face. The eagerness of those across the country to 'celebrate' and brag about it as if it was 'their achievement' on the news media may well be seen as a rather stupid act given the stresses that the UK will be under very soon. There won't be much sympathy shown to them when the ravages of 'free trade' agreements take their toll.

 

[Howardh]

Driving permits won’t take long to get from the Post Office (and not expensive either). Mobile phone companies have all said they’ve no plans to change EU roaming either.

Yes, admittedly there will be changes and some people will be more affected or will notice more. The people who just go abroad to Spain for a week with their kids and don’t intend to drive etc won’t notice much different.... those who want to work will have to get a Visa, but then, that’s not unlike most other big non-EU countries anyway?

Until full facts are known, it’s best to lay off the scaremongering...

So we've been asked to vote on something we don't know the full facts of?

Great.

 

[bramling]

And then we come back round the circle to the ~38% cut in council budgets under the optional policy of austerity. You have chosen to say that this is because of overpopulation, and not because of countless other reasons.

Once again you're either misunderstanding or deliberately twisting what I'm saying. *Why* this situation might have arisen is irrelevant, fact is we *are* where we are.

I'm not say it's *because* of overpopulation, but what I'm saying is it's one example of how Britain isn't equipped for rising population.

Or are you trying to say that our collective tax bill should rise in order to provide housing for new arrivals?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not all Brexiteers are celebrating today.

Besides, can you imagine the enormous gloat fest that would occur if Remain overturned Brexit in a second referendum? I doubt few remainers would ask for restraint to respect the disenfranchised leavers.

I shudder to think at what the Times and Guardian opinion piece headlines would of looked like...

 

[ainsworth74]

Or are you trying to say that our collective tax bill should rise in order to provide housing for new arrivals?

Of course the cuts to various services impact much more on the people who live in the UK and have done their whole lives rather than just new arrivals...

 

[Esker-pades]

Once again you're either misunderstanding or deliberately twisting what I'm saying. *Why* this situation might have arisen is irrelevant, fact is we *are* where we are.

I'm not say it's *because* of overpopulation, but what I'm saying is it's one example of how Britain isn't equipped for rising population.

Or are you trying to say that our collective tax bill should rise in order to provide housing for new arrivals?

It'll be misunderstanding.

Firstly, what @ainsworth74 said.

How the situation arised is not irrelevant, given that, if it is austerity, reversal of that policy will go some way to addressing the problem.

 

[nlogax]

I think it's a day for steering clear of news media. Maybe go out for a nice long walk, listen to some decent music..

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe go out for a nice long walk, listen to some decent music..

Perhaps this?

How the situation arised is not irrelevant, given that, if it is austerity, reversal of that policy will go some way to addressing the problem.

Whereas of course Brexit neither addresses the underlying problem and indeed will probably just make it harder to deal with the very same problem...

 

[nlogax]

Hah.. @ainsworth74, I believe that may be just the shot of musical oomph many of us sorely need today

 

[Bantamzen]

Not all Brexiteers are celebrating today.

Besides, can you imagine the enormous gloat fest that would occur if Remain overturned Brexit in a second referendum? I doubt few remainers would ask for restraint to respect the disenfranchised leavers.

I shudder to think at what the Times and Guardian opinion piece headlines would of looked like...

Honestly, you might be right. But then that might be born of a sense of relief from remainers that we had stepped back from the unknown. Because let's be honest here, at 23:00 tonight that is exactly what we as a nation are doing, stepping out into the unknown. We don't seem to have a cohesive plan on how to negotiate a deal with the EU in 11 months (that being the timescale we have imposed on ourselves), we don't have any cohesive plans to negotiate with over 70 nations that we were once covered by the EU deals.

But if you are worried about what the media might have reported had a second referendum taken place, and overturned the original vote, you can rest assured you don't have to be concerned about that anymore. However, what you really should have always been concerned about was how this country would manage to broker dozens of trade deals that kept us on at least a par with those negotiated by the EU, without actually ever having a firm plan on how to do so.

That is what you should have been worried about. And frankly as of 23:01, that is what you should really be worried about. Because the leaver mantra of "it'll be OK" isn't going to cut it anymore. Everything that happens thereon in is on the leavers, they have nobody else to blame anymore.

 

[Senex]

Hah.. @ainsworth74, I believe that may be just the shot of musical oomph many of us sorely need today

Not just the musical oomph but also the glorious Schiller text!

 

[jon0844]

Saw my first person (member of rail staff) told 'I expect this is your last day before you have to go back home?' today by someone in a suit.

I wanted to give him a good slap, but this will likely become the norm in the coming weeks and months.

 

[Senex]

So Gove has joined in with Johnson today in hoping that people will come together again, that there can be unity. How can the party and the people that have done all they could over the last few years to harden the feelings of separation and the sense of alienation think that there can be anything but hatred for them and their party that has inflicted this damage on us? Or can they really be so naïve as to think that all can now be sweetness and light? (Actually, they probably do, given that Gove also claims this is the country that gave the world parliamentary democracy!)

 

[furnessvale]

Honestly, you might be right. But then that might be born of a sense of relief from remainers that we had stepped back from the unknown. Because let's be honest here, at 23:00 tonight that is exactly what we as a nation are doing, stepping out into the unknown. We don't seem to have a cohesive plan on how to negotiate a deal with the EU in 11 months (that being the timescale we have imposed on ourselves), we don't have any cohesive plans to negotiate with over 70 nations that we were once covered by the EU deals.

But if you are worried about what the media might have reported had a second referendum taken place, and overturned the original vote, you can rest assured you don't have to be concerned about that anymore. However, what you really should have always been concerned about was how this country would manage to broker dozens of trade deals that kept us on at least a par with those negotiated by the EU, without actually ever having a firm plan on how to do so.

That is what you should have been worried about. And frankly as of 23:01, that is what you should really be worried about. Because the leaver mantra of "it'll be OK" isn't going to cut it anymore. Everything that happens thereon in is on the leavers, they have nobody else to blame anymore.

As of 6th January, threequarters of these trade deals had been signed as continuity deals with the UK. More are to follow.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842

 

[Struner]

Perhaps this?

Whereas of course Brexit neither addresses the underlying problem and indeed will probably just make it harder to deal with the very same problem...

André Rieu‘s version seems to be the Nr 1 purchase today?

 

[Doppelganger]

As of 6th January, threequarters of these trade deals had been signed as continuity deals with the UK. More are to follow.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842

Three quarters sounds a lot doesn't it?

But if you look at the article that only represents 8% total UK trade.

That's pretty rubbish in my book and doesn't look like a country ready to go it alone.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Well, here's

Three quarters sounds a lot doesn't it?

But if you look at the article that only represents 8% total UK trade.

That's pretty rubbish in my book and doesn't look like a country ready to go it alone.

The biggest country is South Korea. No EU, no US no China.

 

[DaleCooper]

A song for remainers and a song for leavers, these just happened to be on the CD I was listening to earlier.

 

[Peter Kelford]

A song for both remain and leave:

 

[ComUtoR]

The love story is over...

If you Leave me now - Chicago

She's Gone - Hall and Oats

Baby Come Back - Player

Hard to Say I'm Sorry - Chicago

 

[Ianno87]

Once again you're either misunderstanding or deliberately twisting what I'm saying. *Why* this situation might have arisen is irrelevant, fact is we *are* where we are.

I'm not say it's *because* of overpopulation, but what I'm saying is it's one example of how Britain isn't equipped for rising population.

Or are you trying to say that our collective tax bill should rise in order to provide housing for new arrivals?

Britain *is* equipped for rising population. Cite rows of empty, cheap houses in Liverpool, Middlesbrough, etc. And Scotland, Northern Ireland etc which you seem so keen to get rid of fronlm the Union.

Population growth is inevitable we want to continue to be an economically strong country. EU migration is almost certainly just going to be supplanted by rest-of-world migration to fill the void. Nature abhors a vaccum and all that. The A1(M) will end up just as congested.

It's London & South East that's less well-equipped (and the most geographically linked to continental Europe), but the economic tilt of the country concentrates growth there. If UK policy tilted growth to spead it to other regions more, problem solved.

Otherwise, if you live in the South East, yiu have to accept population growth as the inevitable consequence of living there. You are, of course, equally free to move yourself if it is that concerning to you.

Repeatedly scapegoating skilled hard working EU migrants for all of this is barking up the wrong tree in a huge way.

 

[bramling]

Britain *is* equipped for rising population. Cite rows of empty, cheap houses in Liverpool, Middlesbrough, etc. And Scotland, Northern Ireland etc which you seem so keen to get rid of fronlm the Union.

Population growth is inevitable we want to continue to be an economically strong country. EU migration is almost certainly just going to be supplanted by rest-of-world migration to fill the void. Nature abhors a vaccum and all that. The A1(M) will end up just as congested.

It's London & South East that's less well-equipped (and the most geographically linked to continental Europe), but the economic tilt of the country concentrates growth there. If UK policy tilted growth to spead it to other regions more, problem solved.

Otherwise, if you live in the South East, yiu have to accept population growth as the inevitable consequence of living there. You are, of course, equally free to move yourself if it is that concerning to you.

Repeatedly scapegoating skilled hard working EU migrants for all of this is barking up the wrong tree in a huge way.

Why should I move away from the area where I was born when I don’t want to? As for EU migrants being skilled, I guess if you regard serving food in a cafe, fruit-picking or washing cars as skilled...

 

[nlogax]

Why should I move away from the area where I was born when I don’t want to? As for EU migrants being skilled, I guess if you regard serving food in a cafe, fruit-picking or washing cars as skilled...

Ever used the NHS at all?

 

[furnessvale]

Th

Three quarters sounds a lot doesn't it?

But if you look at the article that only represents 8% total UK trade.

That's pretty rubbish in my book and doesn't look like a country ready to go it alone.

I was simply proving that, once again, a remainer was wrong in their assertions about Brexit.

They represent threequarters of the trade deals that the EU has managed to strike in its entire existence. Not very impressive. Tomorrow the UK starts its own negotiations around the whole world. Let's see how we get on rather than guessing.

 

[alex397]

Why should I move away from the area where I was born when I don’t want to? As for EU migrants being skilled, I guess if you regard serving food in a cafe, fruit-picking or washing cars as skilled...

As above, try the NHS, from cleaners up to surgeons. Also take a look in care homes, factories, bus depots. I've seen lots of EU migrants in managerial roles, and quite a few scientists and academics here too. Your comment is quite an insult really.

Even if they fill a lot of 'unskilled' roles, we need as many people as we can to pick fruit and work as farm labourers. There is not enough UK people to do that.

 

[alex397]

As expected, the news coverage this evening has featured lots of interviews with Joe Public on the street. I will never understand the media's obsession with this. Perhaps its to fill time, or to appear 'with the people'. Most of the people interviewed are depressingly clueless, from both sides of the arguement. From "we can be British again" to "leaving is the worst thing we've ever done".... I'd rather more views from actual experts, even if they are unpopular now.

 

[TrafficEng]

Britain *is* equipped for rising population. Cite rows of empty, cheap houses in Liverpool, Middlesbrough, etc. And Scotland, Northern Ireland etc which you seem so keen to get rid of fronlm the Union.

I raised this point a couple of pages back. I think we need to have a conversation about how growth can be more evenly distributed around the UK. For a start we should be making use of those empty homes rather than cramming people into tower blocks with poor fire safety standards.

I only got one response to my suggestion. It was a bit terse.

Population growth is inevitable we want to continue to be an economically strong country.

I'm not sure about that. Can we not be economically strong without constantly chasing growth?

If UK policy tilted growth to spead it to other regions more, problem solved.

To a degree - see the first comment above. But I'd still question the need for endless growth. We might have a climate disaster on our hands, caused in part by our insatiable appetites for more, more, more.

When does someone say "Enough"?

Repeatedly scapegoating skilled hard working EU migrants for all of this is barking up the wrong tree in a huge way.

Who is doing this scapegoating? Not me. I blame the EU28 governments and the EU itself.

Refusing to recognise that you can't just tell people they are free to go and live and work anywhere they want across a political union consisting of vastly different economies. You don't need to have a degree to work out that such a policy is going to have a destabilising effect. Not just in the countries where people go seeking employment with better wages, but also in the countries they leave behind having to cope with the loss of that skilled workforce.