EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[TrafficEng]

The biggest country is South Korea. No EU, no US no China.

Unless I'm really mistaken I thought we weren't allowed to negotiate trade deals while we were a member of the EU?

Wasn't that the whole point of the transition period? So we could negotiate with the EU after we've left?

Of course if there wasn't a silly rule that said member states couldn't negotiate with the EU before leaving then the whole sorry mess of the last 3 years would have been a whole lot less messy.

 

[dgl]

The Brexiteer song would seem to be Opportunities by the Pet Shop Boys, you need to understand irony for it to make sense though.

Or, of course, "Give Stupidity A Chance"

Fore remainers it must be "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life" as that is the ultimate song for when everything's gone wrong and you can't do anything to stop it, unfortunately.

 

[Howardh]

I'm not say it's *because* of overpopulation, but what I'm saying is it's one example of how Britain isn't equipped for rising population.

Just as an aside, how do countries that are totally landlocked cope with rising populations? The Dutch, being coastal like us, reclaimed land from the sea, but how do places like Austria, Luxembourg, Czech Rep, Slovakia cope? I can think of very few places - outside areas of malnutrition/natural disasters etc - where population isn't growing. So what does everyone else do?

 

[TrafficEng]

Since the 2010, government has been forced/made the choice to make significant cuts to spending. As part of this, central government has cut ~38% from English local authority budgets. This includes Kensington & Chelsea Council, who's job it was to maintain the tower. Had the money been available to improve the tower, they would have done (I hope).

The 38% central government funding cut had no impact on the renovations of Grenfell Tower.

A quick glance at K&C's budgets, council tax history, and cash reserves would confirm that loss of central government funding didn't require savings of a few hundred thousand on a building refurbishment.

 

[Howardh]

Unless I'm really mistaken I thought we weren't allowed to negotiate trade deals while we were a member of the EU?
Wasn't that the whole point of the transition period? So we could negotiate with the EU after we've left?
Of course if there wasn't a silly rule that said member states couldn't negotiate with the EU before leaving then the whole sorry mess of the last 3 years would have been a whole lot less messy.

People forget that the EU wasn't making these trade deals behind our back...we WERE the EU and making deals on our (and everyone else's) behalf!!! Now that's gone...

 

[TrafficEng]

People forget that the EU wasn't making these trade deals behind our back...we WERE the EU and making deals on our (and everyone else's) behalf!!! Now that's gone...

Which people? Who has suggested anything was done behind our back?

The point I made was that we aren't allowed to negotiate a deal with the EU until we have left. As I understand it the same applies to negotiations with the US and China.

The arrangements that have been made are in the form of "carry on as we are" from 1 Feb 2020.

 

[furnessvale]

Unless I'm really mistaken I thought we weren't allowed to negotiate trade deals while we were a member of the EU?

Wasn't that the whole point of the transition period? So we could negotiate with the EU after we've left?

Of course if there wasn't a silly rule that said member states couldn't negotiate with the EU before leaving then the whole sorry mess of the last 3 years would have been a whole lot less messy.

Yes, the only countries we have been allowed to negotiate trade deals with are the few that the EU already have deals with. Threequarters of those have now been signed up. The other quarter need some work so have to be delayed until tomorrow when we can also talk to the other 120+ countries in the world as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

I raised this point a couple of pages back. I think we need to have a conversation about how growth can be more evenly distributed around the UK.

It might help if we had better infrastructure up north. You know maybe some electrified main lines between our biggest conurbations. But at last glance of the three cross-Pennine routes only one is getting partially electrified.

Sadly it seems that we're alone on that idea!

 

[edwin_m]

Why should I move away from the area where I was born when I don’t want to? As for EU migrants being skilled, I guess if you regard serving food in a cafe, fruit-picking or washing cars as skilled...

Plenty of EU migrants where I work - graduate engineers and similar, working on engineering projects for the UK and numerous other countries. If they decide to move out, there aren't enough UK engineers so they'll take the work to other countries.

I raised this point a couple of pages back. I think we need to have a conversation about how growth can be more evenly distributed around the UK.

That's something we badly need, and to be fair to the Johnson government something they said would be a priority. Just a shame that Brexit sucks the energy and revenue out of the government and makes it that much more difficult.

 

[furnessvale]

People forget that the EU wasn't making these trade deals behind our back...we WERE the EU and making deals on our (and everyone else's) behalf!!! Now that's gone...

Yes, making deals for 28 countries which of neccessity were a compromise not always optimised to what was best for the UK as a single country. In future, a deal done by the UK will not have to consider how it affects a Greek olive farmer or a Spanish orange grower.

 

[Doppelganger]

Yes, the only countries we have been allowed to negotiate trade deals with are the few that the EU already have deals with. Threequarters of those have now been signed up. The other quarter need some work so have to be delayed until tomorrow when we can also talk to the other 120+ countries in the world as well.

Christ on a bike!

We want to negotiate with the rest of the world, which is who exactly?

The whole of Africa's GDP is less than France's.

The rest of the world is poor. You think that some dude in Kinshasa wants to buy some insurance policy from someone in the City?

The trade deals the UK wants are with the EU (shock horror!) and other developed nations.

The trade off then is does the UK compromise on food and environmental standards and pander to big business, or do they actually try to take a lead on these issues without the "shackles" of EU bureaucracy. Spoiler alert, it's the former.

 

[bramling]

It might help if we had better infrastructure up north. You know maybe some electrified main lines between our biggest conurbations. But at last glance of the three cross-Pennine routes only one is getting partially electrified.

Sadly it seems that we're alone on that idea!

I agree there needs to be a re-balancing of things, although how easy this might be to achieve in practice is a matter for conjecture.

(This will be my last post before Brexit happens as it’s now time for a minor garden party here which will involve letting off a few fireworks. Happy Brexit to everyone!).

 

[Enthusiast]

And tell me why there's an army and wall on the US-Mexico border whilst the border from the US to Canada is controlled with a light touch? Should the whole world build moats and arm border guards, or should the world do their best to reduce borders?

Presumably because the US Government has decided that it does not want uncontrolled migration from Central and South Americ0a via Mexico but it doesn't have similar concerns about crossings from their northern border. As far as borders go I think you must accept that standards of living across the globe are not equal. Opening borders leaves those countries with better standards of living open to having to cater for people who do not have the means or probably the skills to achieve the same standard of living.

I fail to understand how you can argue for a non-discriminatory immigration policy, without arguing for unrestricted access for all. By there very nature any immigration policy must be discriminatory it is simply a case of what you consider acceptable discrimination.

Choosing whom you want to settle in your country on the basis of what qualities or skills they can offer (as most normal - i.e. non-EU - countries do) is not discriminatory so long as the decision is not based on any immutable characteristics held by the applicant. It's no more discriminatory than choosing the best person for the job. EU migrants are not considered whether they are "best for the job", other migrants are.

P.S. Although I disagree with unrestricted access for all I think noting it as clearly undesirable may be a logical fallacy.

Perhaps you might explain how the undesirability of allowing unlimited numbers of people to enter the country is somehow logically fallacious. The contrary must be that it is logically desirable.

I, too, am off to open something fizzy (New World in case you're wondering).​

 

[TrafficEng]

(This will be my last post before Brexit happens as it’s now time for a minor garden party here which will involve letting off a few fireworks. Happy Brexit to everyone!).

My neighbours are having a big party - loads of union flags, alcohol and music.

The amusing thing is they are Romanian.

Enjoy your fireworks!

 

[Howardh]

Plenty of EU migrants where I work -

Yes, a Maltese doctor signed my mum's death certificate last week. That's two things I've lost this year, the EU and more importantly my old lady. 89 though, I'd take that!

 

[JonasB]

I saw a clip from the Brexit party in Parliament square. And they played The Final Countdown, by the band Europe. How should we interpret the choice of music?

 

[TrafficEng]

It might help if we had better infrastructure up north. You know maybe some electrified main lines between our biggest conurbations. But at last glance of the three cross-Pennine routes only one is getting partially electrified.

Sadly it seems that we're alone on that idea!

That's something we badly need, and to be fair to the Johnson government something they said would be a priority. Just a shame that Brexit sucks the energy and revenue out of the government and makes it that much more difficult.

The problem is that in relation to keeping us in the EU the time for that discussion and the financial investment needed was a decade or more ago.

Gordon Brown should have been addressing it when he had the chance. Instead he chose to call a lifelong Labour supporter a "bigoted woman".

In a few seconds we will see the consequences of those mistakes.

 

[Esker-pades]

Well, that was an anticlimax.

 

[Cowley]

Erm congratulations Leavers.

 

[plymothian]

Someone set off 2 rather limp sounding fireworks here.

 

[Cowley]

The problem is that in relation to keeping us in the EU the time for that discussion and the financial investment needed was a decade or more ago.

Gordon Brown should have been addressing it when he had the chance. Instead he chose to call a lifelong Labour supporter a "bigoted woman".

In a few seconds we will see the consequences of those mistakes.

You do have a point with that one.

 

[83A]

Someone set off 2 rather limp sounding fireworks here.

that sums up Brexit Britain.

 

[Howardh]

Y'know, we've never had a referendum to join the EU. Time we had one, let's get the ball rolling.

 

[DerekC]

Y'know, we've never had a referendum to join the EU. Time we had one, let's get the ball rolling.

Good idea - how about tomorrow when the Leavers are all hung over?

 

[dgl]

Y'know, we've never had a referendum to join the EU. Time we had one, let's get the ball rolling.

Here! Here!, and maybe lets make sure facts and proper reasoning are used this time
Also ban the like of Mogg, Johnson, Cummings, Widdicombe and Farage from speaking until what they want to say has been fully fact checked, would probably keep them mute throughout the who campaign

 

[TrafficEng]

Y'know, we've never had a referendum to join the EU. Time we had one, let's get the ball rolling.

Here you go. You'll have to wait until the petitions site reopens for new ones though.

https://petition.parliament.uk/
(Link to parliament petitions website)

 

[Cowley]

Here! Here!, and maybe lets make sure facts and proper reasoning are used this time
Also ban the like of Mogg, Johnson, Cummings, Widdicombe and Farage from speaking until what they want to say has been fully fact checked, would probably keep them mute throughout the who campaign

How do we feel about adopting the Euro? Could make travelling around Europe easier..?

 

[DerekC]

Here! Here!, and maybe lets make sure facts and proper reasoning are used this time
Also ban the like of Mogg, Johnson, Cummings, Widdicombe and Farage from speaking until what they want to say has been fully fact checked, would probably keep them mute throughout the who campaign

Good idea but Remain had better listen as well. Don't try to con people into believing that the sky is going to fall on the day after the referendum if we don't rejoin - it obviously wasn't true and it undermined the credibility of the whole campaign.

 

[Aictos]

Why should I move away from the area where I was born when I don’t want to? As for EU migrants being skilled, I guess if you regard serving food in a cafe, fruit-picking or washing cars as skilled...

Really?

A lady I know who’s from Tunisia and speaks 5 languages fluently actually worked as a nurse in Italy for many years, the only reason she currently cannot work for the NHS is because her level of English isn’t at a acceptable level but that’s not to say she’s not studying hard to become fluent nor to say she doesn’t work hard as a cleaner on minimum wages.

So your post to me is pure racism.

And tell me why there's an army and wall on the US-Mexico border whilst the border from the US to Canada is controlled with a light touch? Should the whole world build moats and arm border guards, or should the world do their best to reduce borders?

Maybe because there’s more of a illegal immigration and drugs problem with the US-Mexico border then there is with the US-Canada border?

How do we feel about adopting the Euro? Could make travelling around Europe easier..?

As it’s been explained before we don’t need the Euro to join Schengen which if we were still part of the EU and not leaving a more important issue to have.

Adopting the Euro in my view although would standardise currency used in Europe should only happen after a successful application to join the Schengen treaty.

 

[Doppelganger]

Why should I move away from the area where I was born when I don’t want to? As for EU migrants being skilled, I guess if you regard serving food in a cafe, fruit-picking or washing cars as skilled...

A lot of EU migrants are very highly qualified, many have degrees and can speak multiple languages, how does that compare to most Brits?

Yet, those "superior" Brits still aren't capable of pouring a coffee or picking a strawberry.

So what exactly is your point here?