East Midlands Trains, their C158s are excellent, but their Meridians absolute c**p ?

[Failed Unit]

Er... the ground as most of the train ended up down the bottom of an enbankment and Coach A even did a 180 and ended up facing in the other direction?



Now that really is twisting it around isn't it. I could say that speed cameras cause more accidents than they stop because drivers slow down and speed up between them resulting in more rear end shunts as a result

I don't think it is possible to meanifully compare rail accidents anyway. Look at the most recent ones.

Southall - HST hits stationary object at nearly top speed
Ladbrook Grove - Turbo -v- HST closing speed in excess of 125mph
Hatfeild - Mk4 derails but hitting the overhead was what caused most of the damage.
Heck - Mk4 set hits a frieght going with a massive closing speed.

Would a pendo / mk3 / pacer / mk4 performed any better? Who knows, all we can be thankful about is the number of people who lose there lives each year on rail is a lot lower than on the roads. As others have pointed out you are more likely to die crossing the road outside the station then on any train! Regulations are regulations however and the pendo must meet them, imagine if they had been refused to have passengers in the front coaches, something that could have happened (after Polmont) if they could not prove the regulator that the front coach would be a bloodbath if it hits something.

 

[EM2]

I'm assuming Justin wouldn't want to travel on a Shinkansen, then:

 

[Justin Smith]

Er... the ground as most of the train ended up down the bottom of an enbankment and Coach A even did a 180 and ended up facing in the other direction ?

So in answer to the question "did it hit anything solid (like another train)", I take it the answer is no ?

As it happens it's all a little irrelevant for the purpose of my main argument, which is that rail crashes are so rare that provided you're in a monoque built coach then making the windows that small so as to lower your chance in dying from a smash (on any particular train journey) from 1 in a billion to 1 in 1.3 billion [or some other incredibly long odds], is not worth it.
Others, who don't mind looking at cream plastic rather than the outside world going by, may disagree.
To them I'd say do you drive, or get driven, anywhere ?
If so do you know how dangerous that is (relatively speaking) ?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm assuming Justin wouldn't want to travel on a Shinkansen, then:

Ah, seats that align with the windows, damn clever these Japenese.
Maybe we could learn from them ?

 

[ainsworth74]

So in answer to the question "did it hit anything solid (like another train)", I take it the answer is no ?

It didn't hit another train, but it certainly smashed its way through several OHLE masts. The same sort of thing that gutted a Mk4 coach on the ECML at Hatfield.

 

[HITMAN]

Did that Pendolino at Grayrigg actually hit anything solid, like another train ?
If not then comparing it to the HST accidents is not a fair comparison.

Whatever the finer details of said accidents the fact of the matter is that if people really are reassured that the Pendolinos minute winows are going to make any significant difference to the statistical possibility they'll die on any particular rail journey, then peoples perception of risk is all to cock.

I feel perfectly safe in a Mk3, or even (statistically speaking) in a Pacer, so trying to persuade me that I need to put up with a restricted view out of the window in order to make my journey "safer" is just not going to work at all.

I do think it highly amusing that some people are prepared to accept severely restricted views out of train windows "because it'll make me safer", and, probably, quite a few of those same people object to speed cameras on the roads, which really will make a far more significant difference (relatively speaking) to whether they'll get to the end of their journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well remembered, so it is possible, and I bet it doesn't cost that much more, why should it ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You're right, they're falling off the rails and getting smashed up every other week.
What is it, one serious smash in 7 or 8 years ?

No they are not, but they are prone to having that happen to them, the crash rate however for any intercity train is low, not to mention that having a more rigid body structure reduces the chance of the train derailing in any case.

At the end of the day, theres only a few seats that have no view at all, its not like you can't see out of any of them.

 

[Geezertronic]

So in answer to the question "did it hit anything solid (like another train)", I take it the answer is no ?

Er... the answer is yes. The ground is pretty solid when hitting it at force you know, and as mentioned by ainsworth74 the OHLE masts were solid objects as well

Ah, seats that align with the windows, damn clever these Japenese.
Maybe we could learn from them ?

Tell it to the Italians, they designed the Pendolinos didn't they?

I've just done a quick calculation looking at the Pendolino seating plan and 77.5% of the seats have an unrestricted view. Of the 22.5% of the restricted view seats, I would suggest only a small percentage of those actually provide no view at all. Not a big deal really...

 

[jopsuk]

I've just done a quick calculation looking at the Pendolino seating plan and 77.5% of the seats have an unrestricted view. Of the 22.5% of the restricted view seats, I would suggest only a small percentage of those actually provide no view at all. Not a big deal really...

Bit like the seats on the APT-P then? Look! Table bays that don't line up with the windows properly!

 

[Justin Smith]

I've just done a quick calculation looking at the Pendolino seating plan and 77.5% of the seats have an unrestricted view. Of the 22.5% of the restricted view seats, I would suggest only a small percentage of those actually provide no view at all. Not a big deal really...

I've made about nine trips on Pendolinos and there is no way on fantasy island that (in the real world) 77% of Pendolino second class seats have unresticted views* out of the window.
No chance, never.

* As defined by no window pillar, or part of window pillar, or other obstruction, between the back of your seat and the back of the seat in front.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bit like the seats on the APT-P then? Look! Table bays that don't line up with the windows properly!

It isn`t perfect I admit, as mentioned above the last train manufactured by BR which had different window spacings for 1st and 2nd class coaches, which is needed for perfect line up in both classes, was the Mark2F.

I strongly suggest you travel down to "The Railway Age" (Crewe) and sit in an APT, like I`ve done. Even better travel down there by Pendolino and compare "back to back" the light and airy outlook of one train to the claustrophobic cramped nature of the other.
Then come back on here and tell us what you think.

 

[HITMAN]

I've made about nine trips on Pendolinos and there is no way on fantasy island that (in the real world) 77% of Pendolino second class seats have unresticted views* out of the window.
No chance, never.

Well i'm terribly sorry if it causes a problem for you, but most trains companies have adopted the opinion that its safer and more comfortable for passengers to sit inside the train. All views are going to be therefore restricted in some way.

 

[Geezertronic]

I've made about nine trips on Pendolinos and there is no way on fantasy island that (in the real world) 77% of Pendolino second class seats have unresticted views* out of the window.
No chance, never.

The figure I stated is throughout the train not just Standard Class because there are First Class coaches you know The figure for Standard Class alone is around 67.5% Unrestricted View which again is no big deal and this figure could be increased if you count the seats designated as Restricted that do actually provide a view (like seats 01A, 02A, 03A and 04A in Coach A).

And for what it is worth, I reckon I have made a few hundred trips on Pendolinos over the years and travelled in every carriage - First and Standard. The only issues I have ever encountered have been delays due to the WCML stuffing up.

* As defined by no window pillar, or part of window pillar, or other obstruction, between the back of your seat and the back of the seat in front.

You're just getting picky now...

 

[EM2]

Ah, seats that align with the windows, damn clever these Japenese.
Maybe we could learn from them ?

*A* seat, that aligns with *a* window.
But they're tiny. With really thick pillars. Which is exactly what you're saying is wrong with Pendolino windows.

 

[Justin Smith]

Well i'm terribly sorry if it causes a problem for you, but most trains companies have adopted the opinion that its safer and more comfortable for passengers to sit inside the train. All views are going to be therefore restricted in some way.

Is this satire, double satire, or triple satire ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The figure I stated is throughout the train not just Standard Class because there are First Class coaches you know The figure for Standard Class alone is around 67.5% Unrestricted View which again is no big deal and this figure could be increased if you count the seats designated as Restricted that do actually provide a view (like seats 01A, 02A, 03A and 04A in Coach A).

And for what it is worth, I reckon I have made a few hundred trips on Pendolinos over the years and travelled in every carriage - First and Standard. The only issues I have ever encountered have been delays due to the WCML stuffing up....

Forget 1st class, the vast majority of people cannot afford to travel 1st class, particularly on a "turn up and go" basis. For most people what counts is second class, bear in mind that on a "turn up and go" basis even that is VERY expensive.
If you're happy with the window arrangement in 2nd class I think it indicates that you spend the journey doing other things like working on a lap top or reading, which is fair enough, but most people want to look out of the window to a greater or lesser extent, I know I do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You're just getting picky now...

How else would you define "unrestricted view" ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

*A* seat, that aligns with *a* window.
But they're tiny. With really thick pillars. Which is exactly what you're saying is wrong with Pendolino windows.

I agree that the window pillars are very wide, but at least the seats align with the windows which mitigates that somewhat. The trouble with many modern designs, including Meridians, but particularly Pendolinos, is that they have a double whammy, wide pillars and non-aligned seats.

To be frank I don't understand how so many people can defend the the fact that seats and windows don't align on most British trains, particularly on trains with wide window pillars. Some people may say it doesn't matter much to them, personally I don't understand that but there you go, but it's bad design, almost by definition.
Surely they can be no argument about that ?

 

[Geezertronic]

If you're happy with the window arrangement in 2nd class I think it indicates that you spend the journey doing other things like working on a lap top or reading, which is fair enough, but most people want to look out of the window to a greater or lesser extent, I know I do.

I don't do anything other than look out of the window on the train (when the view allows). Last week I had Coach A seat 01A BHI-EUS on Tuesday and BHI-EUS and EUS-BHI on Thursday and was still able to look out of the window - that from a seat designated as Restricted View.

How else would you define "unrestricted view" ?

You can define it however you like (you seem to be doing pretty well yourself), you just don't have to harp on and on about the fact that Pendolino's have Restricted View seats because of the size of the windows and pillars etc... we get your opinion but just because people don't agree doesn't make them wrong any more than you are right

 

[TMTSTMTS]

This isn't a debate, its you waging a personal war because you have a chip on your back for some reason about these trains. I don't think anyone else who has ever used them cares even half as much as you seem to, they do their job and do it well! I've travelled on these trains hundreds of times and i've almost always had the opportunity to have a window view if I wanted one.

 

[HITMAN]

Is this satire, double satire, or triple satire ?

I was merely pointing out in a flippant way that the ideal of an unrestricted view is just that, that a view will always be restricted in some way so long as your sitting inside the train

 

[Geezertronic]

To be frank I don't understand how so many people can defend the the fact that seats and windows don't align on most British trains, particularly on trains with wide window pillars. Some people may say it doesn't matter much to them, personally I don't understand that but there you go, but it's bad design, almost by definition.
Surely they can be no argument about that ?

So your fix would be to remove capacity in standard class just to get the seats to align to the windows? I would love to see your business case for that

 

[Pumbaa]

JS: "oh hello there Virgin, I was wondering whether or not you'd like to consider removing standard class seats in order to make sure every remaining seat lines up perfectly with a window. It might lose you a lot of capacity, just short of 30% seated to be precise, but I think it's a great idea as it means I will have an unobstructed view all the time and won't have to blabber on incessantly about how poor your trains are"
VT: "why don't you just *** off"?

 

[tbtc]

Funny thread whilst it lasted, but its getting boring now.

One guy has a chip on his shoulder, refuses to listen to arguments/ evidence, thread goes round and round in circles...

Next time I travel Virgin, I'm going to complain about all of the other seats in the train blocking my view, and the roof that only gives me a restricted view of the sky, and...

 

[Justin Smith]

I was merely pointing out in a flippant way that the ideal of an unrestricted view is just that, that a view will always be restricted in some way so long as your sitting inside the train

I don't mind flippancy, I'm all for it in fact.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Funny thread whilst it lasted, but its getting boring now.

One guy has a chip on his shoulder, refuses to listen to arguments/ evidence, thread goes round and round in circles...

Next time I travel Virgin, I'm going to complain about all of the other seats in the train blocking my view, and the roof that only gives me a restricted view of the sky, and...

You're right it is going round in circles because we're suffering multiple breakdowns in communications and arguing on parallel lines going in different directions, at the same time.
It's very much like arguing with the wife in fact.....
You're absolutely right I've got a chip on my shoulder, I like to look out of the window and very much object to being unable to do so due to poor design.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So your fix would be to remove capacity in standard class just to get the seats to align to the windows? I would love to see your business case for that

No my fix would be to get some sanity about how safe trains actually are, we don't need windows the size of tea trays and window pillars as wide as garden paths.
Short of that, alter the window spacing between 1st and 2nd class coaches, I really don't see why it should cost that much more. As pointed out earlier BR used to do it with the mk2s.
If I was really cynical, which I am, I'd suggest that the train companies don't want to make 2nd too comfortable so as to encourage people to spend (even more) on a 1st class ticket.

Interesting point.
When BR bothered to produce different window spacings for 1st and 2nd class they referred to passengers as, what was it, passengers.
No train company now makes different window spacings, yet we've now become customers, as in the customer is king, the customer is always right etc etc.
Is there some irony in that ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

JS: "oh hello there Virgin, I was wondering whether or not you'd like to consider removing standard class seats in order to make sure every remaining seat lines up perfectly with a window. It might lose you a lot of capacity, just short of 30% seated to be precise, but I think it's a great idea as it means I will have an unobstructed view all the time and won't have to blabber on incessantly about how poor your trains are"
VT: "why don't you just *** off"?

No my fix would be to get some sanity about how safe trains actually are, we don't need windows the size of tea trays and window pillars as wide as garden paths.
Short of that, alter the window spacing between 1st and 2nd class coaches, I really don't see why it should cost that much more. As pointed out earlier BR used to do it with the mk2s.
If I was really cynical, which I am, I'd suggest that the train companies don't want to make 2nd too comfortable so as to encourage people to spend (even more) on a 1st class ticket.

Didn`t want you to feel left out........

 

[90019]

* As defined by no window pillar, or part of window pillar, or other obstruction, between the back of your seat and the back of the seat in front.

I would like to see you find a train which has no seats at all in any part of the train with any part of the window pillars, even very slightly obscuring the windows between these two points.

 

[Geezertronic]

Funny thread whilst it lasted, but its getting boring now.

One guy has a chip on his shoulder, refuses to listen to arguments/ evidence, thread goes round and round in circles...

Next time I travel Virgin, I'm going to complain about all of the other seats in the train blocking my view, and the roof that only gives me a restricted view of the sky, and...

Yes I'm bored too, someone is always right and everyone else in the world is wrong to have a different point of view...

 

[RAGNARØKR]

So your fix would be to remove capacity in standard class just to get the seats to align to the windows? I would love to see your business case for that

Forget business case, the bodyshells should have been designed with the windows in the right place to start with. Too late now.

 

[jon0844]

I've skipped a number of posts so apologise, but can I just say that I do believe that we should be striving to make trains as safe as possible - even though I firmly believe that no member here is likely to ever be involved in an accident.

I would say that train travel IS incredibly safe, but that's no reason to think that there's an acceptable risk. Why? Because when there IS another accident, someone will be on that train - possibly many people. We may not know them, they may not know us, but that doesn't matter. Someone that could live or die based on how safe the train is that they were on.

In any subsequent inquiry, you wouldn't say 'well it was an acceptable loss' if you knew you already had the means and technology to build something safer.

I know every life is 'costed', but I'm talking about constantly improving with ever new train build. Yes, by all means have the 'grandfather rights' to keep old things running - but it's frankly stupid to hear anyone suggesting we might get rid of these horrid plastic trains for old trains that were built without the science and computer modelling/simulations/predictions we have now.

 

[Justin Smith]

I would like to see you find a train which has no seats at all in any part of the train with any part of the window pillars, even very slightly obscuring the windows between these two points.

It`s a while since I`ve been on a Mark2 but how many of the seats on them had obstructed views out of the window ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would say that train travel IS incredibly safe, but that's no reason to think that there's an acceptable risk.

If passengers were forced to wear seat belts that would certainly save far more lives than just about anything else, with the exception of forcing all the trains to go slower, obviously.
If you`re saying there`s no such thing as acceptable risk in rail travel then do you think seat belts should be enforced ?
If not, why not ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Forget business case, the bodyshells should have been designed with the windows in the right place to start with. Too late now.

Absolutely.
It was/is poor design.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would like to see you find a train which has no seats at all in any part of the train with any part of the window pillars, even very slightly obscuring the windows between these two points.

I think the pacer is a close as you get Wouldn't want to be in an accident in one of those however, luckily accidents are rare.

 

[yorksrob]

I would say that train travel IS incredibly safe, but that's no reason to think that there's an acceptable risk.

Unfortunately there will always be a risk. Interestingly enough, in most spheres of public life, one of the main criteria used to assess whether to adopt a particular safety feature is how much money will be spent for each life likely to be saved by it. This may seem harsh, but in reality we could spend an infinate amount of money almost everywhere on safety so the planners need to be able to choose, for example, between a measure which is likely to save a life for every million pounds spent as opposed to one which may save a life for every ten million pounds.

Getting back to the West Coast Main line, hopefully, by the time the next generation of trains comes to be built, there will be a purpose built high speed line up to Scotland, meaning that neither high speed expresses, or slower trains on the bendy classic route will have to tilt so they may be able to build them with more generous window arrangements.

 

[pemma]

I would like to see you find a train which has no seats at all in any part of the train with any part of the window pillars, even very slightly obscuring the windows between these two points.

That may be true but trains with seats where you get a view of just a pillar and not part pillar part window are very rare i.e. just Pendolinos in this country AFAIK.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I do like the meridans, much better than a vomiter or pendolino. They do have quite a nice ambience in both classes and I am a fan of the seats too. My only gripe about the Meridans is the really annoying door noise when it is opened. It does make quite an annoying noise especially when travelling for some distance.

Travelling EMT from St Pancras to Sheffield in a week or so. Particularly like travelling on the Merdien trains. Going first class, the Saturday advanced purchase ticket was not much more than in standard.

What's a vomiter ???

 

[generalvegitable]

If passengers were forced to wear seat belts that would certainly save far more lives than just about anything else, with the exception of forcing all the trains to go slower, obviously.
If you're saying there's no such thing as acceptable risk in rail travel then do you think seat belts should be enforced ?
If not, why not ?

AFAIK seatbelts on trains would cause more deaths than they would save I remember reading somewhere that they had been trialled by an operator (can't remember who) and they were ruled as dangerous on trains, likewise you wouldn't put seatbelts onto motorcycles would you?

What's a vomiter ???

Voyager

 

[Geezertronic]

Absolutely.
It was/is poor design.

No it's not a poor design. You're basing your comments on being a train enthusiast and not being able to see out of the window in some seats. As already pointed out before, the average Joe who travels regularly on the 390s (of which I am one) does not care as long as they get to their destination quickly and safely. If you travelled regularly during the peaks then you'd notice that the vast majority of people are actually working on laptops, reading, or working some other way (pen & paper etc..) and I am one of the few people actually looking out of the window (when there is actually a view to look at rather than an embankment or brick wall)

Regarding your comments on the 390 Talk Page on Wikipedia, it would be a good idea to provide proper links to technical data to support your window sizing comments. The information should be available if you ask the right people.