Railways to use white diesel?

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't make any difference apart from the government will have to subsidise things that little bit more than they do now.

Will they, though?

 

[dk1]

Will they, though?

Of course they will. Lines don't get closed in this day and age. Berney Arms being a fantastic example.

 

[RLBH]

Curious that this option should be on the table, when fuel duty on road vehicles hasn't been increased in ten years. If it had kept pace with inflation, motor fuel would be liable for duty at a rate over 70p/litre, and possibly as high as 80p/litre.

One can of course argue that the basic rate of duty charged on all fuel ought to be higher, given the environmental damage caused by its' use. But if this rate is increased, it ought to be increased for all users (including road vehicles). The increased rate of duty on road fuel recognises that road use imposes disbenefits on society that go beyond the direct costs of providing roads. It's a rather crude tool that's reaching the limits of applicability, but as long as it's the only tool we have it ought not to be abandoned entirely

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course they will. Lines don't get closed in this day and age. Berney Arms being a fantastic example.

True. I suppose one advantage of doing it is that the Government could have a much more managed rebate scheme. For instance, it could refuse rebate for train services where a DMU or diesel freight locomotive is planned[0] to operate a significant distance[1] under the wires, which would concentrate minds on packing in that practice, which needs to happen.

[0] Excepting where it's a case of "stick a 150 on it or it's getting canned".
[1] Let's say more than 80% of the distance or something? Which would drive proper solutions, be that wiring or batteries, for things like Windermere[2], but wouldn't cause issues for say EMR who have a short section at the start with wires but most of it not.
[2] MR this month points out that battery 331s are already in hand for this (hopefully Barrow too), but it's just an example

 

[Alan2603]

I don't know where you live but around here DVSA Inspections are quite common, especially around the various livestock markets.
And they do catch people!

It's not DVSA who test vehicles on the public highway for running with red (rebatable) diesel, it is the Road Fuel Testing Units of HM Revenue & Customs. It was my job for 25 years until I retired last year. Alternatively the police would often dip vehicle tanks and call us over if they found vehicles running on red.

The worst offenders used to be travelling fairs, who could legitimately use red diesel to power their gen sets on the fairground, but quite often used it in their LGV’s when travelling from fair to fair. Quite often we found hidden belly tanks on the LGV's supplying the engine, or 'tanks within tanks' which appeared to dip as white diesel but the vehicle was actually running on red.

In general farmers used to play the game as well in their agric machinery (tractors). They are permitted to use red when travelling on the public highway between farm fields, but some would go somewhat further. The worst offender I personally found was one almost 85 miles away from his own farm in his MF tractor. After we dealt with him, we handed him over to the police as he was somewhat over the drink drive limit (four times over if I rightly recall).

Alan

 

[Rockhopper]

During the fuel tanker drivers strike a few years ago now I got chatting to a guy who worked for one of the train operating companies. I asked him if they were struggling to get hold of fuel or were they okay as I assumed they used red diesel. He told me that they used normal road diesel as using red would void the warranty on their locos. True or not I have no idea but thats what i was told!

 

[Llanigraham]

It's not DVSA who test vehicles on the public highway for running with red (rebatable) diesel, it is the Road Fuel Testing Units of HM Revenue & Customs. It was my job for 25 years until I retired last year. Alternatively the police would often dip vehicle tanks and call us over if they found vehicles running on red.

The worst offenders used to be travelling fairs, who could legitimately use red diesel to power their gen sets on the fairground, but quite often used it in their LGV’s when travelling from fair to fair. Quite often we found hidden belly tanks on the LGV's supplying the engine, or 'tanks within tanks' which appeared to dip as white diesel but the vehicle was actually running on red.

In general farmers used to play the game as well in their agric machinery (tractors). They are permitted to use red when travelling on the public highway between farm fields, but some would go somewhat further. The worst offender I personally found was one almost 85 miles away from his own farm in his MF tractor. After we dealt with him, we handed him over to the police as he was somewhat over the drink drive limit (four times over if I rightly recall).

Alan

I was being simplistic Alan.
The Testing sites around here are set up by DVSA as they are testing their " bits" and your guys piggy-back with them.
I've got friends who are DVSA inspectors.

 

[Carlisle]

. The increased rate of duty on road fuel recognises that road use imposes disbenefits on society that go beyond the direct costs of providing roads.

It sounds like your fortunate enough to live in a town/ city with good public transport & not somewhere with 1 or less busses a day

 

[Elecman]

“

During the fuel tanker drivers strike a few years ago now I got chatting to a guy who worked for one of the train operating companies. I asked him if they were struggling to get hold of fuel or were they okay as I assumed they used red diesel. He told me that they used normal road diesel as using red would void the warranty on their locos. True or not I have no idea but thats what i was told!

Very unlikely as there is no difference between Red or White diesel it’s the same stuff with just a dye added to it to make it red

 

[Meole]

It's not DVSA who test vehicles on the public highway for running with red (rebatable) diesel, it is the Road Fuel Testing Units of HM Revenue & Customs. It was my job for 25 years until I retired last year. Alternatively the police would often dip vehicle tanks and call us over if they found vehicles running on red.

The worst offenders used to be travelling fairs, who could legitimately use red diesel to power their gen sets on the fairground, but quite often used it in their LGV’s when travelling from fair to fair. Quite often we found hidden belly tanks on the LGV's supplying the engine, or 'tanks within tanks' which appeared to dip as white diesel but the vehicle was actually running on red.

In general farmers used to play the game as well in their agric machinery (tractors). They are permitted to use red when travelling on the public highway between farm fields, but some would go somewhat further. The worst offender I personally found was one almost 85 miles away from his own farm in his MF tractor. After we dealt with him, we handed him over to the police as he was somewhat over the drink drive limit (four times over if I rightly recall).

Alan

I know a fair few farmers who run their diesel cars on red, keep away from obvious locations such as markets and there is zero chance of being dipped especially with cuts to the Excise service, the RFTU testers are few and far between.

 

[NSB2017]

“

Very unlikely as there is no difference between Red or White diesel it’s the same stuff with just a dye added to it to make it red

Doesn't "standard diesel" have to cleaner than red diesel? In terms of some particulate or another?

 

[stj]

I bet diesel theft on the rail network will increase.

 

[alangla]

It used to be AIUI but the regulations changed & red diesel was brought into line with road fuel.

On the issue of closures- it might not mean any passenger closures, but could easily tip the economics of some freight flows in favour of road meaning freight terminal and branch line closures

 

[Facing Back]

It never occurred to me that people might run private cars on red diesel - my naivety! I ran a diesel for 20 years and nobody ever stopped me and checked - nobody I know ever mentioned it either

 

[Edders23]

FACT CHECK

"white diesel" and "red diesel" are virtually one and the same but red diesel is rebated i.e. lower tax and has a red die in it

I very much doubt the railways would be made to pay full tax on their fuel at least not passenger operators

I know there is a big push to get lorries and ships to switch to LNG as a fuel but this is not particularly popular as it is an inferior fuel to diesel for big engines and it might be that the government feels the need to get railway freight operators to move in this direction

but at the end of the day it is down to the government to pay for electrification so what would be the point of punishing TOC's for not using electric trains ?

 

[Edders23]

It never occurred to me that people might run private cars on red diesel - my naivety! I ran a diesel for 20 years and nobody ever stopped me and checked - nobody I know ever mentioned it either

it has been known in the taxi trade but we do get checked regularly as it is part of our 6 monthly MOT

 

[trebor79]

I know there is a big push to get lorries and ships to switch to LNG as a fuel but this is not particularly popular as it is an inferior fuel to diesel for big engines and it might be that the government feels the need to get railway freight operators to move in this direction

LNG for ships and CNG for lorries. LNG is no good for road vehicles as when the vehicle is parked up you just have to vent whatever boils off whereas a ship almost always has some need for auxiliary power so you can make use of the boil off.
Waitrose is converting its entire fleet to CNG, in this case sourced from anaerobic digestion plants. Their fleet manager says after initial skepticism, the drivers prefer the gas powered lorries. They drive just as well as the diesel variety, but are quieter, smoother and they don't go home stinking of diesel after fuelling up. Oh and the fuel costs are lower than for diesel too.
Never mind all the nonsense with batteries, trains have big areas under the floor for lots of CNG storage space and I'm surprised gas powered trains aren't being developed. For freight you can easily imagine an LNG or CNG waggon couple to the loco with a gas line plumbed in.

 

[RLBH]

It sounds like your fortunate enough to live in a town/ city with good public transport & not somewhere with 1 or less busses a day

I don't see how that's really relevant. Car use is problematic in small villages too. Not least because heavy car use reduces the number of bus passengers, leading to withdrawal of the service. If that small village is also used as a rat run to avoid congestion on a nearby main road, then it suffers even more.

For what it's worth, when I lived in a small village I cycled most places. And for about four years, despite living in a city, I had to drive about a hundred miles a day cross-country for work. It's not as though I'm oblivious to why people drive: in fact, I'm all too aware of the reasons for it, and how easily it can be avoided.

Policies aimed at reducing car use will inevitably make rural living less attractive, because inherently cars are better suited to rural transport. But by virtue of being less attractive, property prices and rents will reduce, which will tend to offset the disadvantages for those who live in rural areas. Those who choose to live in small villages but drive long distances to work in a city may be encouraged to live closer to the city, whilst those who only drive to the local market town once a week to do the shopping may actually be better off overall. For that matter, High Street shops would also benefit as driving to a shopping centre on a bypass somewhere becomes less attractive.

 

[hwl]

LNG for ships and CNG for lorries. LNG is no good for road vehicles as when the vehicle is parked up you just have to vent whatever boils off whereas a ship almost always has some need for auxiliary power so you can make use of the boil off.
Waitrose is converting its entire fleet to CNG, in this case sourced from anaerobic digestion plants. Their fleet manager says after initial skepticism, the drivers prefer the gas powered lorries. They drive just as well as the diesel variety, but are quieter, smoother and they don't go home stinking of diesel after fuelling up. Oh and the fuel costs are lower than for diesel too.
Never mind all the nonsense with batteries, trains have big areas under the floor for lots of CNG storage space and I'm surprised gas powered trains aren't being developed. For freight you can easily imagine an LNG or CNG wagon couple to the loco with a gas line plumbed in.

LNG due to density requirements and fuel injection reasons - it costs more than Red Diesel.
GE and EMD have developed LNG locos in the US but the gas oil price is always to low for it to make senses 95% of the time.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

HMRC has looked at the red diesel system several times in the past because of the concern about how much gets diverted to non-permitted uses. Although the fuel at the back of the rail depot isn't exactly the same as road diesel, most road engines can operate on it: various investigations over the years have however suggested that any diversion of this kind is minimal: it's the agricultural sector that's the problem. Abolishing red diesel (or even introducing a possible rebating system, which itself is open to fraud risk) has always been regarded as too controversial, however. Introduction of a slightly higher duty rate, eg. up by 10p per litre, is a more plausible option particularly bearing in mind that crude prices are falling at present so the net price would be very similar....

 

[underbank]

but at the end of the day it is down to the government to pay for electrification so what would be the point of punishing TOC's for not using electric trains ?

It would discourage TOCs from running diesels under the wires - encourage them to lease bi-modes and battery traction etc. Could be the stick that Avanti need to stop using voyagers along entirely electrified routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would discourage TOCs from running diesels under the wires - encourage them to lease bi-modes and battery traction etc. Could be the stick that Avanti need to stop using voyagers along entirely electrified routes.

It isn't viable for them to avoid that at present without substantial service cuts as there are not enough Pendolinos. However, they do have bi-modes and EMUs on order which once delivered will cause this practice to cease. Therefore I would suggest they should be given an exemption.

 

[furnessvale]

It isn't viable for them to avoid that at present without substantial service cuts as there are not enough Pendolinos. However, they do have bi-modes and EMUs on order which once delivered will cause this practice to cease. Therefore I would suggest they should be given an exemption.

As I think I mentioned earlier, if this proceeds, the simplest answer is abolition of track access charges which would put road and rail on a level playing field.

 

[Rockhopper]

To be fair he didn’t say that red is different to white or that it would cause damage if they used it, their loco maker has specified a particular type of fuel and if they use something else then the warranty could be void so they use white as they didn’t feel it was worth the risk.

 

[hwl]

To be fair he didn’t say that red is different to white or that it would cause damage if they used it, their loco maker has specified a particular type of fuel and if they use something else then the warranty could be void so they use white as they didn’t feel it was worth the risk.

Presumably ULSD needed to prevent damage occurring to SCRs?

 

[Edders23]

most red diesel these days is "white " diesel with the dye added because even farm vehicles need low sulphur fuel and the refineries have built desulphurisation plants which means the bulk of their output is to the same spec
It is simpler and cheaper to produce one grade of diesel that meets EN590 and just add the dye to the rebated stuff

 

[InOban]

Given that the government intends to remove general farm subsidies and focus on environmental support, the logic would be the abolition of red diesel entirely. I believe it's a unique to the UK, French farmers pay the normal road fuel price.

 

[hwl]

most red diesel these days is "white " diesel with the dye added because even farm vehicles need low sulphur fuel and the refineries have built desulphurisation plants which means the bulk of their output is to the same spec
It is simpler and cheaper to produce one grade of diesel that meets EN590 and just add the dye to the rebated stuff

For rail use it should have been the be the same spec as road fuel from 1/1/2012 onwards.

 

[sprunt]

it has been known in the taxi trade but we do get checked regularly as it is part of our 6 monthly MOT

How long does the dye take to work through the system? If a driver were inclined, could they use red diesel for, say, three months after the MOT and then go clean for the next three? (I'm not suggesting they, do, just curious.)

 

[Llanigraham]

How long does the dye take to work through the system? If a driver were inclined, could they use red diesel for, say, three months after the MOT and then go clean for the next three? (I'm not suggesting they, do, just curious.)

It "stains" for a very long time. Far longer than that.