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Coronavirus: Is this the end of physical cash? Will we go completely electronic?

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underbank

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I don't think we'll see cash disappearing until the people who make these decisions have an alternative, non-traceable method of paying for sex and drugs.

With the closure of pubs and clubs, the drug trade will be severely curtailed. Every cloud and all that!
 

underbank

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Makes no difference. If the leccy goes they have no way of determining how much you must pay. All goods are bar-coded and that is the only way they are priced. No leccy, no bar code readers. Even if they had a sticker on them saying "50p" it would still not help as the cashier has no way of tapping 50p into the till. The checkout only recognises goods, not prices and its needs leccy to turn the goods into prices.

Which is why during Storm Desmond, the only shops open around here were small private ones who weren't reliant on electronic tills and card readers. They reverted to the "old fashioned ways" of adding up with a calculator (or shock horror - in their heads) and could actually work out change without the crutch of a till to work it out for them. The ones who used EPOS systems just used a tally system to make a note of what they were selling. Funny how we all managed perfectly well before computers - those old enough to remember used those old fashioned skills to stay open and operational.
 

Bletchleyite

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Which is why during Storm Desmond, the only shops open around here were small private ones who weren't reliant on electronic tills and card readers. They reverted to the "old fashioned ways" of adding up with a calculator (or shock horror - in their heads) and could actually work out change without the crutch of a till to work it out for them. The ones who used EPOS systems just used a tally system to make a note of what they were selling. Funny how we all managed perfectly well before computers - those old enough to remember used those old fashioned skills to stay open and operational.

It was in about 1998, but I went to an Asda during a power cut once, and they were estimating the value of peoples' baskets and trolleys and taking cash. Of course, in 2020, they could as well be using a battery-backed mobile-network-connected C&P terminal to do so.

I'd imagine TBH that in a supermarket you could get quite close by estimating each item (other than expensive electronics and similar) to cost about £1.50-£2 or thereabouts.
 

bussnapperwm

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Care to explain how its less secure?

Less cardholder verification. Any Tom Dick or Harry could illegally create a device which could take money off from a card with an "accidental" nudge or knock.

Especially interested in how Google Pay is less secure than chip and PIN.

My Google Pay only has loyalty cards such as my Nectar and Costa Coffee cards on there.

I used to use contactless for everything until I noticed I was becoming more of a spend thrift.

Now using cash for everything (apart from my commute to work), I can physically feel the pain of spending money.

That and the fact I still have to pay cash for things like my work coffee club etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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Less cardholder verification. Any Tom Dick or Harry could illegally create a device which could take money off from a card with an "accidental" nudge or knock.

If you HAVE a contactless card, how does not spending using it reduce the risk of that?

I also remind you that the rule with contactless is if you report a "bad" transaction it WILL be refunded.
 

bussnapperwm

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And also how if you have a contactless capable card not using it in any way improves your security.

I leave my bank card at home unless I need to go to the bank to put some money into my account, or buy something like Clothes.
 

bussnapperwm

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I would think you very unusual by doing that.

Why? It reduces the chances of me blowing my monthly budget, especially on days when I go out somewhere, plus as I don't do food shopping for my family (hate shopping at the best of times - would rather do it online!) It's not odd. It's just better budget control.

As I said up thread, I used to use contactless and chip and pin all of the time, and at one stage I spiralled that much out of control, I ended up going into constant unauthorised overdrafts, with the result being that the bank i was with said enough was enough and closed my account (it didn't help a certain defunct (DB owned) TOC would take nearly half a month to process on board payments!)
 

Bletchleyite

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Why? It reduces the chances of me blowing my monthly budget, especially on days when I go out somewhere, plus as I don't do food shopping for my family (hate shopping at the best of times - would rather do it online!) It's not odd. It's just better budget control.

As I said up thread, I used to use contactless and chip and pin all of the time, and at one stage I spiralled that much out of control, I ended up going into constant unauthorised overdrafts, with the result being that the bank i was with said enough was enough and closed my account (it didn't help a certain defunct (DB owned) TOC would take nearly half a month to process on board payments!)

This is, like it or not, an unusual case; the vast majority of people manage fine. But it can be avoided by switching to one of the mobile-phone banks like Monzo which gives you an accurate overview of money left.
 

najaB

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Why? It reduces the chances of me blowing my monthly budget, especially on days when I go out somewhere, plus as I don't do food shopping for my family (hate shopping at the best of times - would rather do it online!) It's not odd. It's just better budget control.
That's not a security or technical flaw in contactless though, is it?

You could achieve the same result by using a card tied to a prepaid account and only transferring your monthly budget (or a proportion thereof) to it at a time.

It's not for you, that's 100% your choice. I just find it disingenuous to say that it's "less secure" and then base that position on something that has nothing to do with security.

To use a train analogy, it would be like someone saying HST are better than Azumas because the coffee used to be better before the change over - a objective statement based on a subjective choice/opinion of something only tangentially related to the matter being discussed.
 
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Dai Corner

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That's not a security or technical flaw in contactless though, is it?

You could achieve the same result by using a card tied to a prepaid account and only transferring your monthly budget (or a proportion thereof) to it at a time.

That's exactly what I do since I started using Google Pay whenever I can. I have a much better idea where my money has gone than when I used to wonder where that £100 cash that I withdrew last Tuesday (or was it Friday?) had gone.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's exactly what I do since I started using Google Pay whenever I can. I have a much better idea where my money has gone than when I used to wonder where that £100 cash that I withdrew last Tuesday (or was it Friday?) had gone.

I've been using Monzo and my financial management as a whole has improved no end. Much better than withdrawing say £100 and having no idea where it all went.
 

Meerkat

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This concept that contactless is high risk as anyone with a gadget can nick your money has one rather big flaw. It isn’t cash in hand they can then spend. Their gadget has to get your bank to send them money, electronically, to an account they have set up.
Obviously far from impossible, but raises the complications and the evidence trail for the bad guy.
And I assume the banks don’t instantly settle them, there is delay during which they can block paying contested charges?
 

Tom B

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It was in about 1998, but I went to an Asda during a power cut once, and they were estimating the value of peoples' baskets and trolleys and taking cash. Of course, in 2020, they could as well be using a battery-backed mobile-network-connected C&P terminal to do so.

I'd imagine TBH that in a supermarket you could get quite close by estimating each item (other than expensive electronics and similar) to cost about £1.50-£2 or thereabouts.

When I'm in a supermarket I usually tot up in my head what the value of the shopping is, and am usually within a couple of quid when I get to the (manned) checkout.

I've been in a couple of pubs where the barstaff have said "£X.XX please" and without looking or asking, thrust a chip and pin machine under my nose; they usually wait a little while before looking and seeing I'm trying to hand them a fiver. Equally, earlier in the week I went to the cash and carry for something, wrote them a cheque, and they had to think for a minute what buttons to press on the till to take it!
 

underbank

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It was in about 1998, but I went to an Asda during a power cut once, and they were estimating the value of peoples' baskets and trolleys and taking cash. Of course, in 2020, they could as well be using a battery-backed mobile-network-connected C&P terminal to do so.

I'd imagine TBH that in a supermarket you could get quite close by estimating each item (other than expensive electronics and similar) to cost about £1.50-£2 or thereabouts.

As recent as the 90s' Kwik Save checkout staff memorised the prices of the stock they sold - there were no price labels on items and they used the old fashioned tills - no EPOS, bar codes, etc.
 

flymo

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As a non-UK resident, but British, when I pay by my HSBC card in UK it always makes me laugh when the machine spits out a receipt that needs a signature. Some (most) people accept this and do what needs to be done, (I sign, smile and go (smile is extra btw)) but one petrol station lady near Rochester in Kent literally lost it and called the Police accusing me of fraud. In the meantime someone who worked there who was over 30, or had been awake during training, turned up and the transaction was completed. No idea what the Police would have done, probably should have stayed for the circus.
Anyway, just an aside, not everyone in UK pays by card and UK needs to be able to deal with this, and to be honest right now, if things go cashless it can't.
 

Meerkat

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I had a shop say the card machine wasn’t working and I would need to sign the chit.
Problem was I found I hadn’t actually signed any of the credit/debit cards in my wallet for them to compare to!
 

Bletchleyite

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I had a shop say the card machine wasn’t working and I would need to sign the chit.
Problem was I found I hadn’t actually signed any of the credit/debit cards in my wallet for them to compare to!

TBH that doesn't actually overly matter. The signature isn't primarily about comparing it on the spot, it's about recalling the slips in the event of fraud being reported and checking it then.
 

najaB

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TBH that doesn't actually overly matter. The signature isn't primarily about comparing it on the spot, it's about recalling the slips in the event of fraud being reported and checking it then.
Since liability shift it very much is about attempting to detect fraudulent use on the spot.
 

duffield

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Less cardholder verification. Any Tom Dick or Harry could illegally create a device which could take money off from a card with an "accidental" nudge or knock.
...

This particular issue is *very* easy to solve, for literally a few pence you can buy cardboard/foil sleeves which fit in the card slots in your wallet, and when the card is inside it is unreadable (any yes, I've tested it and it works).
 

Bletchleyite

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This particular issue is *very* easy to solve, for literally a few pence you can buy cardboard/foil sleeves which fit in the card slots in your wallet, and when the card is inside it is unreadable (any yes, I've tested it and it works).

Might as well make yourself a tin-foil hat at the same time? :D
 

Hadders

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To be honest, I refuse to use contactless (I only have Google Pay in order to keep my loyalty cards together) as it's less secure than chip and pin and easier to spendthrift than cash.

If you have a contactless enabled card but don't use contactless then you're at more risk.

Once 6 consecutive contactless transactions have taken place (I think it is, it might have changed) then the next time you use contactless then you'll be asked to insert your card and enter your PIN. If someone was to steal your card then the maximum number of contactless transactions they could make is 6 (and in all probability it would be less than this) meaning the maximum exposure is £180. The only exception is if the card is being used in transit mode (e.g. TfL)

As others have said if fraudulent activity takes place then your bank will refund you as long as you haven't been negligent.

It often makes me smile when people call out the risk with contactless and then forget that cash never gets stolen, cheque fraud never happened....
 

sheff1

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With businesses (including TOCs) all over the place saying that they won't take cash due to contamination risk...will they start again, or is cash now dead?

Getting on for half of the small independent businesses, of all types. in my local shopping area only accept cash. Other than a couple of cafes*, none of them have shut up shop and, as far as I am aware, have no intention of doing so. Conversely, many of the chain/franchise type outlets have signs at the tills asking people to pay by card if possible - they do, though, still accept cash if offered. The supermarkets seem to have no such signs and the customer in front of me yesterday paid a bill of over £100 in cash, as is common practice. The only place I have seen saying "we are now card only" is Subway which I never use.

So, regarding your question - it is not a case of 'starting again' as they have never stopped.

* obviously shut for other reasons.
 
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