Route restriction data

[kieron]

Would anyone be able to tell me what prevents a "Greater Anglia Only" anytime day return from London to Cambridge (as shown on brfares.com) from being offered by sites such as nre.co.uk* for itineraries involving TfL Rail services?

London-Stratford-Tottenham Hale-Stansted-Cambridge is a valid route for an "any permitted" ticket. There are no restrictions in the fare data for the route code (00020) or the ticket code (SDR). The routeing guide data says a journey with that route code must include Greater Anglia, and must not include a list of other TOCs. It doesn't mention TfL Rail, which I assume means you are allowed to use them.

Is there some additional information ticket sites use to work out which trains are valid with a ticket like this one? Or have I misunderstood how they use the data?

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[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm sure the experts here will tell you:

A Greater Anglia Only ticket is definitely not valid on any other operator, including TfL Rail.

Surely the route description makes this blindingly obvious?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Is there some additional information ticket sites use to work out which trains are valid with a ticket like this one?

Yes; they use the route restrictions data. Which is illogically included in the routeing guide data feed, rather than the fares data feed.

 

[JB_B]

Would anyone be able to tell me what prevents a "Greater Anglia Only" anytime day return from London to Cambridge (as shown on brfares.com) from being offered by sites such as nre.co.uk* for itineraries involving TfL Rail services?

London-Stratford-Tottenham Hale-Stansted-Cambridge is a valid route for an "any permitted" ticket. There are no restrictions in the fare data for the route code (00020) or the ticket code (SDR). The routeing guide data says a journey with that route code must include Greater Anglia, and must not include a list of other TOCs. It doesn't mention TfL Rail, which I assume means you are allowed to use them.

Is there some additional information ticket sites use to work out which trains are valid with a ticket like this one? Or have I misunderstood how they use the data?

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to open correctly.

I had a look at the '...and connections' routes - e.g. 00402 00439 00456 00484. These either don't have any T (TOC include) records or have T records for a comprehensive list of TOCs.

I think that could imply that the restrictions imposed by T records must apply to all journey legs (not just at least one journey leg) although I'd agree that the guidance in RSPS5047 doens't make this clear. (So that would mean that, where T records are specified, all legs must be by one of the TOCs listed.) Does that seem plausible?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Hmmm, I may have misinterpreted what kieron meant by "the routeing guide data" (I don't regard fare route restrictions as part of the routeing guide so that threw me!).

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think JB_B is correct. There is only one T record (Greater Anglia), therefore all legs in the journey must be on Greater Anglia. All the X records are just a distraction.

 

[kieron]

Thank you, that does seem to be how it works.

Looking at some other routes, there is a (00030) GN TLINK & CONN restrictions which has T records. It is a bit broken as a result. It lists HC (Heathrow Connect) rather than XR (TfL Rail), so it again fails to return results using their trains.

I'm looking at these because I'd like to make a note of when these records change, but if I'm to make sense of them I'd need to know what it means for there to be multiple records for a single route or easement or whatever.

On an unrelated note, I noticed when looking at this that SVH fares do have a TOC restriction in the fare data *.TSP file. They're all interpreted as Crosscountry/Virgin/LNR/WMR & connections, although the customer is told nothing about this. This isn't so handy if you're planning a journey such as Bolton-Edinburgh, where TPE provide through trains.

 

[Andrew1395]

Yes; they use the route restrictions data. Which is illogically included in the routeing guide data feed, rather than the fares data feed.

The original single digital system - Rail Journey Information System, exported fares, timetable and the routeing guide data in separate feeds to Ticket issuing Systems, and later third party journey planning systems. Although fares data controls the management of the fare route detail, it is exported in the routeing guide feed. Other "routeing" information is managed in the source timetable data. Such as links like underground. It reflects the design from 1996. But as with many things it is the cost of changing the end recipient systems that results in the continuation of legacy formats.

 

[infobleep]

The original single digital system - Rail Journey Information System, exported fares, timetable and the routeing guide data in separate feeds to Ticket issuing Systems, and later third party journey planning systems. Although fares data controls the management of the fare route detail, it is exported in the routeing guide feed. Other "routeing" information is managed in the source timetable data. Such as links like underground. It reflects the design from 1996. But as with many things it is the cost of changing the end recipient systems that results in the continuation of legacy formats.

I work with addressing data and every so often new data revisions are issued and software companies have to update there software or pull out of the market as some choose do.

Could the rail industry not move to something new. Yes there would be pain but surely the gains might outweigh it?

If we never progressed, we'd still be living in caves.

I do appreciate it's not simple.

 

[Andrew1395]

I work with addressing data and every so often new data revisions are issued and software companies have to update there software or pull out of the market as some choose do.

Could the rail industry not move to something new. Yes there would be pain but surely the gains might outweigh it?

If we never progressed, we'd still be living in caves.

I do appreciate it's not simple.

I agree with that. Unfortunately every new end user has only the legacy data formats to use. Often very few people understand what some of the wooliness in the specifications mean.

This is a general problem with so many front office systems and suppliers now. It does need sorting, and similar situations apply with Network rail. Who own the location data system, that is required by all retailing systems. Much of this is still based on BR corporate systems, a quarter of a century after privatisation. Since then it has grown like Topsy, each new business need relying on legacy systems. Maybe one day it will get sorted.