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Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

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pieguyrob

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Was looking forward to the launch of that service as well, as I live in Blackpool. Which is a bery surreal place at the moment.
 
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swanhill41

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The chance of this franchise making a go of it,pre Covid-19 was very low,but after this problem has gone away,what will the playing field be like..?
If it was me in charge ,would be checking to see if there was a low cost exit....Don't forget,all the proper franchises ,have temporarily been nationalised till further notice..So to be honest,no passengers,no need for further trains for the foreseeable future ?......Oh and no income....Unkown of course are the expenses already incurred....Frankly can only feel sympathy for them,with all the hard work put into getting the train service up and running,and then bang,no service.
 

pieguyrob

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My dad and myself were going to have a day out in London using this service. Doesn't look like its happening now. Also the bottom has fallen out of the taxi trade in Blackpool, so can't afford it anyway.
 

PG

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They'd have to run ECS every so often with each staff member, otherwise the route and traction knowledge would expire. Not sure how often this would be, but I'm sure someone will know...
Going by posts by drivers on other threads it appears that for a route to remain on your card you'd need to drive it within 6 months otherwise you'd need to re-learn it. Not sure if the same applies for traction knowledge...
 

DoubleO

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The chance of this franchise making a go of it,pre Covid-19 was very low,but after this problem has gone away,what will the playing field be like..?
If it was me in charge ,would be checking to see if there was a low cost exit....Don't forget,all the proper franchises ,have temporarily been nationalised till further notice..So to be honest,no passengers,no need for further trains for the foreseeable future ?......Oh and no income....Unkown of course are the expenses already incurred....Frankly can only feel sympathy for them,with all the hard work put into getting the train service up and running,and then bang,no service.

It's not a franchise, it's an expansion to an existing open access operation. The money must have been allocated to set the service up with limited services due to start in May, gradually ramping up to a full service later in the year, so in that respect there's actually no need to panic as those timescales COULD still be achievable. More of a concern is the sudden lack of income on GCs existing routes which presumably would have been helping to bankroll the investment for the Blackpool expansion....
 

Trogladyte

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My dad and myself were going to have a day out in London using this service. Doesn't look like its happening now. Also the bottom has fallen out of the taxi trade in Blackpool, so can't afford it anyway.


Little bit too early to tell that
 

bunnahabhain

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Going by posts by drivers on other threads it appears that for a route to remain on your card you'd need to drive it within 6 months otherwise you'd need to re-learn it. Not sure if the same applies for traction knowledge...
Except where you've just learned them, in which case you must work over the route or traction within 28 days. Also depending upon the TOC you either manage your own route/traction knowledge or its managed for you. For example for me I manage my own route knowledge so there are a small number of minor routes that I very rarely work but am still competent to go over them, the onus is upon me to put in a route refresh for that route as opposed to having it removed from my card automatically as can happen at other TOCs.
 

Bald Rick

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Let’s not forget two things:

1) the service wasn’t starting until June, with a slow ramp up; so it may be that by that time we are over the worst of this crisis, and train services might be close to getting back to normal.

2) Grand Central are owned by Arriva, who are supported by the German taxpayer.
 

Chester1

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Let’s not forget two things:

1) the service wasn’t starting until June, with a slow ramp up; so it may be that by that time we are over the worst of this crisis, and train services might be close to getting back to normal.

2) Grand Central are owned by Arriva, who are supported by the German taxpayer.

3 ) Once this crisis ends there is likely to be a big surge in UK leisure travel for a few months. Its a good route to launch in time for a summer when flying abroad may not be possible.
 

pieguyrob

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All the hotel staff in Blackpool have been laid off, as far as I'm aware. Certainly at the hotels we have the contract with.
 

swanhill41

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All the hotel staff in Blackpool have been laid off, as far as I'm aware. Certainly at the hotels we have the contract with.
I do not think that this open access company will get to the starting line...Just seen that Hull Trains have put up the closed to further notice sign up....This is with a train service that basically has 100% of customers Hull to KX,has a track record going back 10 plus years and has brand new stock....There is a strong hint that train services will not get back to approx normal till very late summer....Nope,no chance of the train service making any money,as even before my feeling as a local to Blackpool could not see a hope in hell of getting loadings that would have made a profit.....
 

Fyldeboy

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swanhill41 said:
Nope,no chance of the train service making any money,as even before my feeling as a local to Blackpool could not see a hope in hell of getting loadings that would have made a profit.....
Whilst I share your lack of clarity as to how this will fund itself, I think we have to appreciate that Arriva will have done their research and pre-covid-19 this would have been in with a good chance of success. I suspect an introduction in the Autumn of 2020 at skeleton levels with an even slower ramp-up than initially planned.
 

38Cto15E

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Does that coincide with the festival of light,Diwali?
Because of the virus, I would imagine that this new service will be delayed by 12 months, I cannot see many people using the service for the illuminations, then Blackpool is like a ghost town in the winter.
 

VT 390

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Does that coincide with the festival of light,Diwali?
Because of the virus, I would imagine that this new service will be delayed by 12 months, I cannot see many people using the service for the illuminations, then Blackpool is like a ghost town in the winter.
Would it not make some sense to start it in the winter (December timetable change) with just 1 or 2 trains per day so they can launch the service when it is quieter so if there are any issues they can be resolved before lots of people use the service?
 

pieguyrob

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Well, I hope when the current situation resolves itself, that they do get up and running. My dad and I, will certainly be using the service. (I need 4 of the allocated locomotives and some of the carriages for haulage!)
 

plugwash

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3 ) Once this crisis ends there is likely to be a big surge in UK leisure travel for a few months. Its a good route to launch in time for a summer when flying abroad may not be possible.
The big question mark is what will things look like by the peak summer season? will things be back to somewhat normal? or will we still all be on lockdown?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Well, I hope when the current situation resolves itself, that they do get up and running. My dad and I, will certainly be using the service. (I need 4 of the allocated locomotives and some of the carriages for haulage!)

I'm quite hopeful of using it too, though depends on the fare structure. I don't really have any reason to go to Blackpool, but I often travel between London and Cumbria - for which an off-peak return is now well over £100, and I often need more flexibility than you get with Advance tickets. So if Grand Central can offer significantly cheaper walk-on fares than Avanti to get as far as Preston, then I'll be more than happy to change there.
 

pieguyrob

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I would hope so. My understanding of open access is to stimulate competition to offer an alternative and to bring down prices.

Feel fre to correct me.
 

ainsworth74

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My understanding of open access is to stimulate competition to offer an alternative and to bring down prices.

The first is mostly true but the second is more a happy accident. There is evidence that it has helped keep fares slightly lower on the East Coast Mainline between London and York (mostly in relation to APs rather than flexible tickets I believe) and sometimes Open Access operators use it as a selling point. One of Grand Central's early marketing strategies was to show how they were cheaper than the franchised operator in terms of flexible tickets that's fallen by the wayside to some extent (off-peak they are still cheaper but only to the tune £15 which when you talking about a fare of over £100 to York it's not a huge difference). The new First East Coast outfit, when they get going, are another who are promoting themselves as offering a cheap alternative (an "average" fare of less than £25). On the other hand Hull Trains certainly don't current and I don't think have ever used being "cheap" as a selling point (anymore than a franchised operator does anyway).

But the point is mostly to allow for competition (up to a point) on rail against existing operators because that is supposed to bring about benefits for the passenger.
 

pieguyrob

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Ok. An advance return from Blackpool to London was about £95 before the last fare increase, so even saving £15 is good. It might not be a lot, but, it pays for the tube in London. It also makes a day out to London cheaper for someone like myself, who will then spend money in the big smoke, likewise, going the other way.
 

ainsworth74

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Ok. An advance return from Blackpool to London was about £95 before the last fare increase, so even saving £15 is good. It might not be a lot, but, it pays for the tube in London. It also makes a day out to London cheaper for someone like myself, who will then spend money in the big smoke, likewise, going the other way.

It's trade offs though isn't it?

Perhaps York isn't the best to compare Blackpool with as it has an extremely good service from the franchised operator but for sake of comparison on York to London you can purchase a Grand Central only Off-Peak Return for £103 which allows you to travel on four southbound trains with the earliest arrival into London of 1231 (and the last departure from York at 1912). You can return on four different trains but you have a gap between 1257 and 1927 (also the last train of the day for Grand Central) as the departure in the middle (at 1648) is barred for the Grand Central only Off-Peak Return.

Alternatively the Any Permitted Super-Off Peak return is £116.70 and is valid on any train from York arriving into London after 1117 and allows you to depart on any train from London between 0906 and 1459 and then after 1859 (1815 on Fridays). So the ticket that's valid on LNER allows you to arrive in London earlier, leave London later, gives you access to several dozen different trains all for an extra £13.70.

Now those are flexible tickets on advance booked train only tickets Grand Central will regularly undercut LNER, particularly close to the time of travel, but on flexible tickets the saving available to the passenger is much less.

But of course over in Blackpool Avanti only run a handful of trains to go alongside the handful of new Grand Central services. Plus over on the East Coast Grand Central is now well established so there's less need to lure people in with cheap flexible tickets than perhaps there was when they first started. Might not be the case over in Blackpool where they're starting from scratch.
 

paul1609

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It's trade offs though isn't it?

Perhaps York isn't the best to compare Blackpool with as it has an extremely good service from the franchised operator but for sake of comparison on York to London you can purchase a Grand Central only Off-Peak Return for £103 which allows you to travel on four southbound trains with the earliest arrival into London of 1231 (and the last departure from York at 1912). You can return on four different trains but you have a gap between 1257 and 1927 (also the last train of the day for Grand Central) as the departure in the middle (at 1648) is barred for the Grand Central only Off-Peak Return.

Alternatively the Any Permitted Super-Off Peak return is £116.70 and is valid on any train from York arriving into London after 1117 and allows you to depart on any train from London between 0906 and 1459 and then after 1859 (1815 on Fridays). So the ticket that's valid on LNER allows you to arrive in London earlier, leave London later, gives you access to several dozen different trains all for an extra £13.70.

Now those are flexible tickets on advance booked train only tickets Grand Central will regularly undercut LNER, particularly close to the time of travel, but on flexible tickets the saving available to the passenger is much less.

But of course over in Blackpool Avanti only run a handful of trains to go alongside the handful of new Grand Central services. Plus over on the East Coast Grand Central is now well established so there's less need to lure people in with cheap flexible tickets than perhaps there was when they first started. Might not be the case over in Blackpool where they're starting from scratch.

I think the main difference is that on the WCML theres a lot more competition. I can with a railcard generally guarantee to get to Crewe from London on Advances for under a tenner and then pay the same again to get to Blackpool. Okay thats with 2 changes and a loss of an hour but Im a pensioner that still uses rucksacs and tracky bottoms so it s not a real issue. Ironically the really cheap advances seem to use the through Avanti service from Wigan which are pretty empty. Not sure how Grand Central think they are going to even cover costs with the limited market.
 

liam456

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I'm hoping for some competition all the way up the WCML with some GC + TPE Advances changing trains at Preston!
 

paul1609

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I'm hoping for some competition all the way up the WCML with some GC + TPE Advances changing trains at Preston!
I've been paying £25 for Avanti + Avanti + Avanti advances from Euston to Glasgow with a railcard through trainsplit, journey time 5 hours 45 with recovery/ pint time at Preston. If GC are undercutting that they won't last long.
 

Whisky Papa

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I'm hoping for some competition all the way up the WCML with some GC + TPE Advances changing trains at Preston!

Not if GC adopt the strategy of their Bradford service, I'm afraid. When I was working in the area, there were no add-ons in Yorkshire for connecting Northern services (eg from Hebden Bridge to connect into GC at Halifax or Brighouse), nor were there add-ons at the London end other than the London zones.
 

Ianno87

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Not if GC adopt the strategy of their Bradford service, I'm afraid. When I was working in the area, there were no add-ons in Yorkshire for connecting Northern services (eg from Hebden Bridge to connect into GC at Halifax or Brighouse), nor were there add-ons at the London end other than the London zones.

There are however London-Doncaster-Sheffield Advances available via GC/Northern.
 
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