Coronavirus: Is this the end of physical cash? Will we go completely electronic?

[Struner]

[…]
I think he might like a contactless payment card with a display showing the current balance.

That woulld be progress indeed!

 

[RT4038]

You are an exception, an increasingly small one at that. There is an issue with small wilful[1] exceptions, in that they're costly to serve. There therefore comes a point where they can no longer be provided for.

[1] We provide for disabilities despite the huge cost as those people have no choice, which is different.

In the 70s most companies changed from paying wages in cash to through bank accounts. There was all sorts of naysayers predicting doom and the end of life as we know it. The 'what about....' brigade had a field day, coming up with all sorts of scenarios predicting poverty to those who couldn't cope with bank accounts. And it all came to nothing - how many are paid in cash today (from regular employment)?

 

[aviator]

When I was working for M&S in the noughties all 'shop floor' staff were paid in cash ... when my former brother-in-law was working at the NHS he was paid in cash (2010 I believe) ... so it's not the possibility of paying everyone electronically that's in question, more the option of any 'employer' being able to pay in cash when that's more convenient - for whatever reasons.

One of the main reasons that I would prefer cash to never go away, is that my current employment means I am paid every forntnight but all the "usual" debits (e.g. mortgage!) are monthly. So it's wise to have some cash in my pocket for months when my electronic balance is low, due to salary being paid a few days after the monthly/quarterly debits!!

NB. would everyone (posting for or against) who mentions "exceptions" please give some evidence to justify the claims? e.g. Bletchleyite says above "an increasingly small one at that" - how small? Compared to what? How "small" does a small exception have to be, before the people concerned can be ignored?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the main reasons that I would prefer cash to never go away, is that my current employment means I am paid every forntnight but all the "usual" debits (e.g. mortgage!) are monthly. So it's wise to have some cash in my pocket for months when my electronic balance is low, due to salary being paid a few days after the monthly/quarterly debits!!

Er, if you didn't have the cash in your pocket it'd be in your bank account, and so your balance wouldn't be low?

NB. would everyone (posting for or against) who mentions "exceptions" please give some evidence to justify the claims? e.g. Bletchleyite says above "an increasingly small one at that" - how small? Compared to what? How "small" does a small exception have to be, before the people concerned can be ignored?

Other than disabilities, "the point that catering for it no longer makes business sense". Particularly in London people are already deciding this, there are plenty of cash-free shops around the City for example, including a branch of Tesco.

Businesses are not, and should not be, required to cater for whims. They are required, by their shareholders, to adopt policies that maximise the income to those shareholders. If that means ceasing to take cash, they should, nay must, cease to take cash. The customer's remedy, should they dislike this, is to withdraw their business.

Try paying for a Ryanair flight by cash and see how far you get.

 

[aviator]

Er, if you didn't have the cash in your pocket it'd be in your bank account, and so your balance wouldn't be low?



Other than disabilities, "the point that catering for it no longer makes business sense". Particularly in London people are already deciding this, there are plenty of cash-free shops around the City for example, including a branch of Tesco.

Businesses are not, and should not be, required to cater for whims. They are required, by their shareholders, to adopt policies that maximise the income to those shareholders. If that means ceasing to take cash, they should, nay must, cease to take cash. The customer's remedy, should they dislike this, is to withdraw their business.

Try paying for a Ryanair flight by cash and see how far you get.

Yes but surely accepting / not accepting cash is determined by the legal definition of what constitutes legal tender? Not shareholders wishes.
If shareholders wishes came first I'm sure many companies would love to stop providing paid holday and paid sick leave

IIRC someone in the past (not sure when) posted that, under the law (Sale of Goods Act) if you offer cash, i.e. legal tender, and the shopkeeper refuses to accept it, then you can walk out carrying your goods because if the shopkeeper refuses legal tender it's not the customers problem. Though I've no idea if this still applies or how it might be affected by COVID-19!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but surely accepting / not accepting cash is determined by the legal definition of what constitutes legal tender? Not shareholders wishes.
If shareholders wishes came first I'm sure many companies would love to stop providing paid holday and paid sick leave

IIRC someone in the past (not sure when) posted that, under the law (Sale of Goods Act) if you offer cash, i.e. legal tender, and the shopkeeper refuses to accept it, then you can walk out carrying your goods because if the shopkeeper refuses legal tender it's not the customers problem. Though I've no idea if this still applies or how it might be affected by COVID-19!

This is incorrect. Legal tender is based on the settlement of a debt in Court (and by convention before it gets there). A retailer works on payment before the goods transfer to your ownership, so this would be theft.

Restaurants, where you pay after eating, are more debatable, though I did read that a clear sign stating card only is enough to cover it.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes but surely accepting / not accepting cash is determined by the legal definition of what constitutes legal tender? Not shareholders wishes.
If shareholders wishes came first I'm sure many companies would love to stop providing paid holday and paid sick leave

IIRC someone in the past (not sure when) posted that, under the law (Sale of Goods Act) if you offer cash, i.e. legal tender, and the shopkeeper refuses to accept it, then you can walk out carrying your goods because if the shopkeeper refuses legal tender it's not the customers problem. Though I've no idea if this still applies or how it might be affected by COVID-19!

A common misunderstanding

What is legal tender?

Many people are confused about what legal tender means. It’s actually about settling debts rather than how you can pay for things.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

You might have heard someone in a shop say: “But it’s legal tender!”. Most people think it means the shop has to accept the payment form. But that’s not the case.

A shop owner can choose what payment they accept. If you want to pay for a pack of gum with a £50 note, it’s perfectly legal to turn you down. Likewise for all other banknotes, it’s a matter of discretion. If your local corner shop decided to only accept payments in Pokémon cards that would be within their right too. But they’d probably lose customers.

Legal tender has a narrow technical meaning which has no use in everyday life. It means that if you offer to fully pay off a debt to someone in legal tender, they can’t sue you for failing to repay.

 

[aviator]

Ah well, I was only posting from memory - and I've never read the Sale of Goods Act

Back on topic, and more seriously - if I have cash then it's solely my responsibility what happens to it
If everything goes electronic, then I'll be happy to follow the trend if the banks accept 100% responsibility for what happens to the card - e.g. if someone brushes past me and 'skims' it to get my details, then it's the bank's fault for not making it more secure

Does this sound reasonable? Are there any rules like this already in place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If everything goes electronic, then I'll be happy to follow the trend if the banks accept 100% responsibility for what happens to the card - e.g. if someone brushes past me and 'skims' it to get my details, then it's the bank's fault for not making it more secure

Does this sound reasonable? Are there any rules like this already in place?

Yes. All contactless fraud is bank/retailer liability. As long as you report it, you are not liable for it.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes. All contactless fraud is bank/retailer liability. As long as you report it, you are not liable for it.

It's also worth mentioning that if you lose your card you can deactivate it immediately online, and reactivate if you find it again. Cards really are at least as secure as cash.

 

[causton]

Ah well, I was only posting from memory - and I've never read the Sale of Goods Act

Back on topic, and more seriously - if I have cash then it's solely my responsibility what happens to it
If everything goes electronic, then I'll be happy to follow the trend if the banks accept 100% responsibility for what happens to the card - e.g. if someone brushes past me and 'skims' it to get my details, then it's the bank's fault for not making it more secure

Does this sound reasonable? Are there any rules like this already in place?

Yes, this is already in place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also worth mentioning that if you lose your card you can deactivate it immediately online, and reactivate if you find it again. Cards really are at least as secure as cash.

Much more secure (and that ability to reactivate a lost card once found is rather useful!)

 

[sheff1]

Businesses are not, and should not be, required to cater for whims. They are required, by their shareholders, to adopt policies that maximise the income to those shareholders. If that means ceasing to take cash, they should, nay must, cease to take cash. The customer's remedy, should they dislike this, is to withdraw their business.

Not all businesses have shareholders. On my local high street there are four butchers*, all independent. Many customers wish to pay by cash. If one butcher unilaterally decided to stop taking cash, I am sure some customers would do as you say and transfer their business to a butcher who catered for their preference.

* other businesses are available - bakers, grocers etc.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not all businesses have shareholders. On my local high street there are four butchers*, all independent. Many customers wish to pay by cash. If one butcher unilaterally decided to stop taking cash, I am sure some customers would do as you say and transfer their business to a butcher who catered for their preference.

* other businesses are available - bakers, grocers etc.

Similarly, if one butcher unilaterally decided to stop taking cards some would transfer their business to one who catered for their preference.

 

[sheff1]

Similarly, if one butcher unilaterally decided to stop taking cards some would transfer their business to one who catered for their preference.

Indeed.
But some on here seem to think businesses should not cater for the preferences of their customers. Where there is competition, businesses who fail to meet the wishes of their customers will lose customers to rivals who do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed.
But some on here seem to think businesses should not cater for the preferences of their customers. Where there is competition, businesses who fail to meet the wishes of their customers will lose customers to rivals who do.

Indeed. But that is offset by the costs to the business. So a business can totally validly decide that they simply don't want the business of those wishing to pay by cash, or by card, or whatever, because it's too costly to be worth it. Or, if they have a good reputation, they can bet on the idea that some customers will actually go out of their way to still be customers, i.e. they will pay by card even if they preferred cash.

The point at which that generates more profit for the business is the time for such a decision, and in places this is already happening.

 

[Statto]

There's a few pubs & takeaways in my area that only accept cash, then you have the situation with some shops were you have to spend a minimum amount before you can use your contactless card, cash will & should always be around

Also to add you need cash for shopping trolleys from some supermarkets, i know Aldi for one the trolleys are coin operated

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. But that is offset by the costs to the business. So a business can totally validly decide that they simply don't want the business of those wishing to pay by cash, or by card, or whatever, because it's too costly to be worth it. Or, if they have a good reputation, they can bet on the idea that some customers will actually go out of their way to still be customers, i.e. they will pay by card even if they preferred cash.

The point at which that generates more profit for the business is the time for such a decision, and in places this is already happening.

Indeed; I have just been to a pub* that has recently switched to only taking card, and when this is over they are sticking with it. They don’t want the hassle of cash, and who can blame them. The landlord reckoned he would lose precisely no custom.

*collecting some off sales real ale in a big plastic bottle. Gosh how I’ve missed it!

 

[philjo]

A few days before Christmas there was a fault with the till system in Morrisons so each card transaction was taking 3-4 minutes to be approved, causing a buildup of the queues. So a number of the tills were strictly For cash Payments only. I can think oF 2-3 similar incidents In the last year when I had to pay cash when the card readers were not working, so always carry at least £50 on me. The ticket office at our GTR station had a similar problem a few months ago so again tickets sales were cash only that morning.

 

[simonw]

This whole thread is just a debate between early and late adopters. Cash usage likes cheques is dying, how long it takes to die is the only unknown.

 

[Busaholic]

They can’t steal any money from you as the bank cover it.....

Until the bank collapses under the weight of it all.

 

[Busaholic]

This whole thread is just a debate between early and late adopters. Cash usage likes cheques is dying, how long it takes to die is the only unknown.

All card systems will die/become completely unworkable well before then. Cash is back to basics, and will no more die than prostitution and government corruption.When all else fails (as it will, increasingly) cash will save the day.

 

[JamesT]

Until the bank collapses under the weight of it all.

Then the FSCS steps in and covers the deposits in the bank.

 

[Tom B]

The difference between the non-acceptance of cheques vs cash is primarily the risk to the retailer, surely. If I walk into a supermarket and wrote them a cheque, they have no idea who I am and whether the cheque will be honoured (hence why cheques tend to only be taken at places where you have an account - cash and carry etc).

On the other hand, cash can't "bounce"...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until the bank collapses under the weight of it all.

Then the Government's protection scheme (FSCS) pays out.

(Don't reply "until the Goverment collapses..." as that just isn't happening - look at the sums being paid out at the moment, they make a bit of contactless card fraud look like a small bag of pennies)

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, cash can't "bounce"...

It can however be fake. Whereas an authorised card payment is very unlikely not to be paid.

 

[sheff1]

Indeed; I have just been to a pub* that has recently switched to only taking card, and when this is over they are sticking with it. They don’t want the hassle of cash, and who can blame them. The landlord reckoned he would lose precisely no custom.

The owner/manager of a pub/hotel/restaurant near Lancaster thought that as well. People stopped by, found out they couldn't pay by cash and left. 6 months later the place closed down (not necessarily due to the no cash policy). It later reopened under new management and cash is accepted again (or at least it was until the coronavirus-forced closure)

The experience of 'your' pub may well be different and I will be interested to hear a report after it has reopened.

 

[Bald Rick]

A few days before Christmas there was a fault with the till system in Morrisons so each card transaction was taking 3-4 minutes to be approved, causing a buildup of the queues. So a number of the tills were strictly For cash Payments only. I can think oF 2-3 similar incidents In the last year when I had to pay cash when the card readers were not working, so always carry at least £50 on me. The ticket office at our GTR station had a similar problem a few months ago so again tickets sales were cash only that morning.

In 30 years of paying for all supermarket food by card, I have never seen this, nor has my Mrs. I’d file those experiences as “unlucky, and extremely rare”

 

[Bletchleyite]

The owner/manager of a pub/hotel/restaurant near Lancaster thought that as well. People stopped by, found out they couldn't pay by cash and left. 6 months later the place closed down (not necessarily due to the no cash policy). It later reopened under new management and cash is accepted again.

The experience of 'your' pub may well be different and I will be interested to hear a report after it has reopened.

I suspect there is a strong north south divide on this, and would be surprised if there aren't already card-only pubs in London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In 30 years of paying for all supermarket food by card, I have never seen this, nor has my Mrs. I’d file those experiences as “unlucky, and extremely rare”

I've only once in my whole 40 years not been able to pay by card in a supermarket, it was during a power cut when they stayed open (they wanted to sell stuff because of the risk of spoilage of frozen/chilled food) and estimated the value of trolleys/baskets, cash only.

It wouldn't to be fair be hard to do the same thing with old-fashioned manual card machines or Stripe on mobile phones or whatever.