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Forest Hill to Syon Lane
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That seems pretty nutty, that means there are certain tickets where there are no reasonable break of journey opportunities, since the only "through" train does not take the shortest route!
MichaelAMW
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Yes, I understand the distinction you're making. Season tickets don't have any 'special' validity regarding routes: they have exactly the same route availability as a single-journey ticket. You're right, of course, that a season is available for limitless break of journey (and any intermediate journey) - but only on a permitted route. No part of Clapham Junction to Syon Lane is a permitted route on a London to Clapham Junction ticket, season or not.
As I pointed out, there is a specific permission to go on a through train *all the way* from origin to destination - that would be London to CJ in this case - even if that train goes via a non-permitted route. However, that permission does not extend to using the ticket at any intermediate station on the non-permitted route.
(Having checked the RG, I think London Bridge - Crystal P - Clapham J is actually a permitted route, but the Hounslow loop bit isn't.)
Cheers,
Michael.
As I pointed out, there is a specific permission to go on a through train *all the way* from origin to destination - that would be London to CJ in this case - even if that train goes via a non-permitted route. However, that permission does not extend to using the ticket at any intermediate station on the non-permitted route.
(Having checked the RG, I think London Bridge - Crystal P - Clapham J is actually a permitted route, but the Hounslow loop bit isn't.)
Cheers,
Michael.
The Routeing Guide says: "Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route".
From the way I read it, any through train IS a permitted route. I understand that ATOC does not interpret it that way.
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Just to be clear, I have no doubt that anyone on a train or at Syon Lane with a CJ to London ticket will be considered not to have a valid ticket by revenue protection staff, even if the passenger says "I'm travelling from CJ to London and I wish to break my journey here ".
This is all very complicated isn't it?!
If I understand it correctly, and relating it to my own neck of the woods, if i had a Cardiff - Shrewsbury ticket I could travel via the Heart of Wales on one of the through trains, but not if I got on at Bridgend?
If I understand it correctly, and relating it to my own neck of the woods, if i had a Cardiff - Shrewsbury ticket I could travel via the Heart of Wales on one of the through trains, but not if I got on at Bridgend?
MichaelAMW
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Yes, a through train is a permitted route - *but only as long as* you are travelling on that train *directly* (i.e. without break of journey) all the way from the origin to the destination as shown on your ticket. Otherwise, a permitted route is only as defined in the maps section of the RG - it's only on *those* permitted routes that you can use the ticket at intermediate stations.
See the first page of this:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
where it says:
"A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customers origin station and final destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey."
It's 'may' rather than 'is not' because plenty of (most, probably) through trains operate over permitted routes. It's only unusually indirect or return-loop journeys, on the whole, where this doesn't apply.
In our case, as a change of train is being required at Syon Lane, which is neither origin nor destination as shown on the ticket, *and* Syon Lane is not on a mapped permitted route, it's not allowed.
Michael.
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Yes - as long as you get on at Cardiff Central and off at Shrewsbury. Otherwise, the only route you can is via Hereford. Note that you can't go via Swansea on, say, a Cathays to Shrewsbruy ticket - the fact that you have no choice but to change at Cardiff doesn't then mean the through-train rule applies from Cardiff onwards, as Cardiff is not shown on your ticket.
Michael.
See the first page of this:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
where it says:
"A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customers origin station and final destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey."
It's 'may' rather than 'is not' because plenty of (most, probably) through trains operate over permitted routes. It's only unusually indirect or return-loop journeys, on the whole, where this doesn't apply.
In our case, as a change of train is being required at Syon Lane, which is neither origin nor destination as shown on the ticket, *and* Syon Lane is not on a mapped permitted route, it's not allowed.
Michael.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes - as long as you get on at Cardiff Central and off at Shrewsbury. Otherwise, the only route you can is via Hereford. Note that you can't go via Swansea on, say, a Cathays to Shrewsbruy ticket - the fact that you have no choice but to change at Cardiff doesn't then mean the through-train rule applies from Cardiff onwards, as Cardiff is not shown on your ticket.
Michael.
A change of train is not necessary to complete the journey. I believe this condition is for another issue that you see in the NRT, where it shows times to other stations (in italic I believe) by changing trains at intermediate stations, however that route may not be valid.
Good, that's what I thought!
clagmonster
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Michael, I see your point but disagree. For me, the key line is:
"This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey."
This line only applies where a change of train is necessary to complete the journey, a change of train as a result of break of journey is not a neccessity. Sadly, the converse is not dealt with.
I also disagree with Yorkie's argument that the doubling back rule dissallows this route, as said rule is not documented until step 7 of determining permitted routes using the routeing guide, where the journey is on an advertised through train we do not even need to consult the routeing guide.
Also, the Conditions of Carriage states:
"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
...
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
I think, as a Hounslow loop service is advertised in printed and PDF timetables as a through Waterloo-Waterloo service, that Waterloo-Clapham Junction via Hounslow can reasonably be seen as travelling on a through train by this definition. Note use of the phrase "may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains", thus not dissallowing the right to a break of journey.
That said, I do believe that morally travel on a London Terminals-Clapham Junction ticket should not be valid via the Hounslow loop, and I also agree that passengers would probably have difficulty persuading a TTI or ticket barrier attendent that the ticket was valid as such.
"This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey."
This line only applies where a change of train is necessary to complete the journey, a change of train as a result of break of journey is not a neccessity. Sadly, the converse is not dealt with.
I also disagree with Yorkie's argument that the doubling back rule dissallows this route, as said rule is not documented until step 7 of determining permitted routes using the routeing guide, where the journey is on an advertised through train we do not even need to consult the routeing guide.
Also, the Conditions of Carriage states:
"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
...
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
I think, as a Hounslow loop service is advertised in printed and PDF timetables as a through Waterloo-Waterloo service, that Waterloo-Clapham Junction via Hounslow can reasonably be seen as travelling on a through train by this definition. Note use of the phrase "may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains", thus not dissallowing the right to a break of journey.
That said, I do believe that morally travel on a London Terminals-Clapham Junction ticket should not be valid via the Hounslow loop, and I also agree that passengers would probably have difficulty persuading a TTI or ticket barrier attendent that the ticket was valid as such.
The DfT do seem to interpret it that way, but the TOC can put in a negative easement to disallow it.
Some timetables show it as Waterloo - Waterloo, some as Waterloo - Hounslow.
I think it *should* be valid, on the technicality. But I think that revenue protection staff, and ultimately a magistrate, would probably decide that common-sense would suggest it shouldn't be valid, and would decide accordingly. It's certainly not a position that I would want to find myself in.
I'm getting confused again!
The journey in question is to Syon Lane on the Hounslow loop, right?
So it's not possible to claim that you are travelling on a through train between Clapham Jct and Waterloo if you are getting on and off at Syon Lane, right?
So it's both morally wrong and invalid to do this, right?
Someone with a season between those two places could use it for a through jounrey, but the ticket is not valid at any intermediate station, because effectively, those stations are not on a permitted route?
Oh dear, my head hurts, I need a lie down!
The journey in question is to Syon Lane on the Hounslow loop, right?
So it's not possible to claim that you are travelling on a through train between Clapham Jct and Waterloo if you are getting on and off at Syon Lane, right?
So it's both morally wrong and invalid to do this, right?
Someone with a season between those two places could use it for a through jounrey, but the ticket is not valid at any intermediate station, because effectively, those stations are not on a permitted route?
Oh dear, my head hurts, I need a lie down!
Magistrates would use common sense, rather than the contract between the passenger and the TOC?
The common sense fix is for the Routeing Guide to be amended to say that the permitted route on a through train is the shortest distance between the Origin and Destination (and that break of journey is permitted at any intermediate station). End of discussion.
MichaelAMW
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You should be happy with your head because you are right!
Other people in this thread 'want' it to be possible to do this round-the-houses route, in order to (albeit theoretically as an interesting discussion!) avoid payment.
The point I am having trouble conveying is that you can only use a through train to go all the way from A to B on an A to B ticket. You may not - assuming we are talking about travelling on a route not permitted by the routeing guide, which is the case here - use the existence of such a through train to claim a new permitted route.
Clagmonster's quoting "This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey", is irrelevant: he uses this to say that since it is *possible* to do that route on a through train it is therefore permissible to do it not on a through train, i.e. by breaking the journey intermediately. However, that's just semantics: it clearly *is* necessary to change trains to complete the journey if you decide to break your journey. The routeing guide is warning you that just because a *through* train is allowed you need to check properly if you're planning *not* to catch a through train.
In any case, the permission, as I have already said, is quite specific: you have to stay on the train all the way from the origin to the destination on your ticket; trying to squeeze something out of the word "may", which I see as there because it is one of several options and therefore not compulsory, doesn't remove this requirement.
Michael.
clagmonster
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Michael, I agree that if you travelled on a route a through train traverses on a train which is not a through train, you would not be valid. For example, between Waterloo-Syon Lane you could legitimatley travel on a Hounslow loop service with a ticket to Clapham Junction, as it is advertised in some places as a through train, but you could not travel on a Weybridge service as it is not a through train, even so for that leg it traverses the same route.
However, I believe that you could break a journey at Syon Lane on a Waterloo-Clapham Junction ticket, so long as you travel only on Hounslow loop services, and arrive and depart Syon Lane in the same direction (assume for now we are dealing with normal tickets, not seasons).
However, I believe that you could break a journey at Syon Lane on a Waterloo-Clapham Junction ticket, so long as you travel only on Hounslow loop services, and arrive and depart Syon Lane in the same direction (assume for now we are dealing with normal tickets, not seasons).
Ivo
Established Member
Under this argument, would an Edinburgh Waverley - Haymarket ticket be valid to Lochgelly and back?
MichaelAMW
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I give up! I have explained this issue and I'm not going to repeat myself any further. However, Greenback, you make a good point: how on Earth can it be reasonable to use a London-Clapham ticket to go onto Syon Lane? It isn't; and the rules don't allow it.
Michael.
clagmonster
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Assuming the Fife Circle trains are still advertised as through trains, then yes I believe it would so long as you travelled out via Cowdenbeath and back via Kirkcaldy or vice-versa and only travelled only on advertised Edinburgh-Edinburgh via the Fife circle trains.
I do not think either case would be morally right, and I think the best course of action would be for ATOC to change the wording of the Conditions of Carriage and the routeing guide to prohibit this. Inclusion of the phrase "You may not pass through your origin or destination station unless an easement specifically allows this" or similar would do the trick I suspect.
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Michael, I agree that it would not be reasonable to use a Waterloo-Clapham ticket to Syon Lane, but sadly the rules are ambiguous and hence we are interpreting them in different ways. I think it would be best if the rules were clarified in order to remove this ambiguity and hence this discussion. ATOC do, I believe, read this message board, so hopefully this may happen.
I do not think either case would be morally right, and I think the best course of action would be for ATOC to change the wording of the Conditions of Carriage and the routeing guide to prohibit this. Inclusion of the phrase "You may not pass through your origin or destination station unless an easement specifically allows this" or similar would do the trick I suspect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Michael, I agree that it would not be reasonable to use a Waterloo-Clapham ticket to Syon Lane, but sadly the rules are ambiguous and hence we are interpreting them in different ways. I think it would be best if the rules were clarified in order to remove this ambiguity and hence this discussion. ATOC do, I believe, read this message board, so hopefully this may happen.
My question was directed at Clagmonster, who I quoted, and who has now replied to say he agrees that it would be allowed!
I don't agree with Clagmonster's interpretation of the rules, but I do agree that further clarification is needed. We all agree (I think!) that this interpretation is morally wrong and not intentional by ATOC, but I doubt that ATOC will provide any clarification, as some issues that have been raised with them have not been satisfactorily resolved one way or t'other in over a decade!
OwlMan
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Why are the through train rule & the shortest journey (now that mileage is not in the timetable) rules still in existance? When WSMR introduced their service ATOC added a new map to cover the routes taken.
How many direct trains/shortest routes are not mapped? If there are only a few they could be included as easements/new maps if the route is reasonable.
Peter
Also it is illogical if say there was a through train from Nottingham - Leicester via Peterborough that passengers from Nottingham can use it but passengers from Bulwell can not.
How many direct trains/shortest routes are not mapped? If there are only a few they could be included as easements/new maps if the route is reasonable.
Peter
Also it is illogical if say there was a through train from Nottingham - Leicester via Peterborough that passengers from Nottingham can use it but passengers from Bulwell can not.
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What about a Clapham to London ticket? It is the railway that allows a "break of journey" provision that seems to combine with the fact that there is direct train from Clapham that goes to London via Syon Lane.
Which rule explicitly does not allow it? ATOC says Break of Journey is not allowed on a through train if it takes a route that's not the shortest route, or a route permitted by the maps, but they have not specified where that rule is and I have not found it.
I disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to take a Peterborough -London via Ipswich train on a Peterborough-London ticket, and break the journey in Ipswich, providing your journey is resumed on a through train (ex-Peterborough). I think that was also concluded in one of Barry Doe's articles too.
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I don't think there can be any doubt that you cannot use a London-Clapham ticket to Syon Lane, but when I raised that earlier it was pointed out to me that the reverse journey could be argued to be valid. Not an argument I agree with, but I can see how it can be argued. However even then, it rules out using that season ticket as a commute because there is surely no doubt that in one direction at least, it is clearly invalid because you are travelling beyond the destination shown on the ticket.
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It's exactly the same argument. It clearly is not valid, because when you get to Haymarket you are then invalid if you remain on the train, as you are travelling beyond the destination on your ticket. It's no different at all.
At the risk of beating this to death even more than we have already, you can travel through Syon Lane in either direction making a Clapham to London Journey, so if you want to push it then you can always make "Clapham to London" trips on your season ticket - however in one direction, you're going to travel Syon Lane to Clapham Junction as a resumption of a broken "Clapham Junction to London" journey. Which doesn't sound right, so I think you'd be forced to travel past CJ in order to maintain the "I'm going to London" charade.
And the chances of an RPI at Syon Lane going for all this is zero.
paul1609
Established Member
Whilst I dont necessarily disagree with your interpretation. I think that you would stand a fair chance of getting a £20 penaltyfare if you meet SWTs RPIs. i had similar discusions with one about leaving a service at Cosham on a Littlehampton to Portsmouth Stns season ticket even though he agreed with me it was legit to change trains there.
clagmonster
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Yorkie, you are travelling beyond the destination on your ticket, but the trouble is that the train calls at a station twice, hence leaving Haymarket going north on a Fife Circle service, you are still on an advertised direct train to Haymarket, so you have left, but not yet arrived, if you get my drift.
MichaelAMW
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Permitted routes are:
1. Shortest route
2. Through train, as I keep saying, all the way from origin to destination
3. Mapped routes in the RG
London to Syon Lane on a London-CJ ticket is none of these.
To answer your question, the matter of breaking your journey doesn't even arise if you're not on a permitted route, because then you have no valid ticket that might, or might not, allow you to break your journey. You will be sold a ticket for what you are currently doing journey-wise, plus a PF perhaps. The ticket in your pocket is of no consequence.
ATOC does not say explicitly - that's seems to be the word you want to concentrate on - that you can't break your journey. However, and this is near as makes no difference the same thing, you have to travel all the way from A to B on the through train - where A and B are on your ticket and the train doesn't accord with 1 or 3 above. If you have to stay on the train, which you do, then you rather obviously can't break your journey.
See also Yorkie's post on Friday: "I think it's perfectly acceptable to take a Peterborough -London via Ipswich train on a Peterborough-London ticket, and break the journey in Ipswich, providing your journey is resumed on a through train (ex-Peterborough)."
I am afraid I think that is nonsense. Apart from the attempts of people trying to shoehorn meaning into a couple of phrases in the routeing guide, any sensible interpretation simply tells you that a through train is an additional concession - it avoids the daft situation of being forced to change trains when you, as it were, have stood there and watched a through train leave without you. The through-train option is about catching a particular train to complete your entire journey.
I am bemused as to how this from the RG instructions:
"Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route.... A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customers origin station and final destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey."
means you can think
-- It allows any number of trains to be used between any pair of stations on the 'route' as long as they are all through trains - it obviously means one train is to be used
-- Breaking your journey doesn't involve changing trains
-- That the word 'may' somehow softens the rule: it's 'may not' rather than 'is not' because a through train might be operating over a permitted route, i.e. shortest or mapped in the RG, in which case break of journey *is* allowed - *but because it's a permitted route* and not because it's a through train.
On the other hand, I do think you can go Edinburgh to Haymarket - although it's absurd - via the Fife circle, because nowhere does it say that you have to get off the train the first time it stops there. Why do I say this? I feel the railway charges you to take you from A to B, not particularly for the distance you travel. You've just gone 'round the houses' for a nice ride and not avoided the correct fare for Lochgelly, because that's not where you're going to. Note also that the doubling back rule is only to do with mapped routes in the RG, so it doesn't apply here with regard to Haymarket.
Michael.
I agree. I think that the intention of the routeing guide rules is to allow jounreys from A-B over a non permitted route provided that it is a through train between A and B - this means no change of train, and no break of jounrey at all.
I believe Barry Doe clarified the Peterborough - London through trains some years ago when they first began running, and the conclusion from his communications with ATOC were that London - Scotland tickets were valid between Liverpool Street and Peterboroguh on a through service without a break of journey.
I believe Barry Doe clarified the Peterborough - London through trains some years ago when they first began running, and the conclusion from his communications with ATOC were that London - Scotland tickets were valid between Liverpool Street and Peterboroguh on a through service without a break of journey.
That's opening up another can of worms, which we have discussed in the past, and I believe that negative easements are completely pointless.
The instructions of the routeing guide contain a flowchart, which says:
1. Is the route the shortest distance from the origin to the destination?
2. Is the customer travelling on an advertised through train?
If the answer to any of the above is "yes" then it would seem to anyone following the steps logically that they can stop reading and make the journey. One would only come across the easements section in the very last stage of checking the routeing guide, after having checked the maps, so if you are on a through train then you would have no reason to check the easements page, and thus an easement cannot be used to make a journey that is either the shortest, on a direct train or a mapped route, invalid.
You could (and I take credit for John @ home for this, and will post here as he has not done so) change the ticket restriction from "Any permitted" to "Not xxx" to avoid people going "the wrong way" round a loop.
OwlMan
Established Member
as 2 above says is the customer travelling on AN advertised through train.
It does not say more than one through train so the route may be legal if you are travelling on a through train to your destination but once you get off that train you are off route and no longer have a valid ticket.
Peter.
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