Saver Half (SVH) product on Avanti West Coast to end from May fares round

[Trackman]

I wonder how many people actually use or know about VT/Avanti SVH's

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how many people actually use or know about VT/Avanti SVH's

I'd imagine a lot of people, though many of them probably unwittingly.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder how many people actually use or know about VT/Avanti SVH's

Lots. It’s generally the ticket of choice for someone (especially business people) travelling from London to Manchester who require a bit of flexibility on the return.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder how many people actually use or know about VT/Avanti SVH's

Know their name and exactly how they work? Few. Go onto the website and select them because that's what the website offers, and they're the cheapest option for their needs? Many, many many.

 

[route101]

I'd imagine a lot of people, though many of them probably unwittingly.

I only knew once id bought my ticket and the return portion was flexiable.

 

[bellalistair]

Given that rail use is significantly about perception, I'm a little confused why this is a good idea for Avanti.
Take my travel to London, Off Peak Return 146.30 and I'm far enough north that it will always be off peak
If the single is now 65% then the advance has to be less than 35% of 146.30 = 46.30. At the very lowest advance price point in the system (29.00) I now get a saving of 17.30 at best. Hence I'm unlikely to use advances and now perceive that I can't buy the "cheap" tickets for the train only the "expensive" one unless I can fix my return train.

 

[Starmill]

Given that rail use is significantly about perception, I'm a little confused why this is a good idea for Avanti.
Take my travel to London, Off Peak Return 146.30 and I'm far enough north that it will always be off peak
If the single is now 65% then the advance has to be less than 35% of 146.30 = 46.30. At the very lowest advance price point in the system (29.00) I now get a saving of 17.30 at best. Hence I'm unlikely to use advances and now perceive that I can't buy the "cheap" tickets for the train only the "expensive" one unless I can fix my return train.

This is merely a symptom of the increases in the prices of Advance tickets under the later days of VT. Various companies have realised they can both be more granular in their yield management and retain 100% of the allocation, they have tried to push a greater share of sales onto Advance tickets. It also has some marketing benefits to make greater numbers available at a higher price, because it seems more honest and sets realistic expectations.

The problem is that if you're booking 10 - 12 weeks out, 2*£29 Advance tickets tends to be poor value for money given you're not entitled to a refund and they would charge you a £20 fee to amend both. Once the cheapest Advances sell out, let's say you're looking at about £35 each way, lots people would take a judgement that a flexible return for £93, available at that price on the day, is better value than a fixed, non-refundable one for £70.

The cheapest Advance tickets could be £15, which would re-balance the perceptions. Whether or not selling a small number of much cheaper tickets and then increasing prices more would make for higher average revenue is another matter.

Sites where Advance tickets can be amended for free, such as CrossCountry, have changed the rules a little.

 

[Kite159]

I can see advance fares disappearing (or being provided with minimal saving, i.e. £1) from Sunday afternoon/evening trains. Especially from Manchester to London where there seems to be a price jump for services after 2pm (where the entry level advance fares change tier so services until the 13:55 service will be ~£23, but the 14:15 onwards will be ~£35 (dropping back to the lower tier for those services arriving late).

Although on flows where Avanti won't necessary get the bulk of the "any permitted" off-peak return revenues, it might be different.

 

[snail]

Given that rail use is significantly about perception, I'm a little confused why this is a good idea for Avanti.

If all singles are going to the 60%70% pricing and can be bought on the day it could be good for business travel where you aren't sure about return timings. Currently if you want to travel from Euston to Manchester in the afternoon or evening you either commit to buying a SVH and leaving before 3pm or after 7pm or go for an Anytime single at silly prices. If you can now get a peak single at lower cost some will opt for that instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If all singles are going to the 60%70% pricing and can be bought on the day it could be good for business travel where you aren't sure about return timings. Currently if you want to travel from Euston to Manchester in the afternoon or evening you either commit to buying a SVH and leaving before 3pm or after 7pm or go for an Anytime single at silly prices. If you can now get a peak single at lower cost some will opt for that instead.

You can excess the SVH to an Anytime Single if you need to.

Avanti's Anytime Singles are mostly 50% of the returns already.

 

[Starmill]

If all singles are going to the 60%70% pricing and can be bought on the day it could be good for business travel where you aren't sure about return timings. Currently if you want to travel from Euston to Manchester in the afternoon or evening you either commit to buying a SVH and leaving before 3pm or after 7pm or go for an Anytime single at silly prices. If you can now get a peak single at lower cost some will opt for that instead.

This does not logically follow. For example, if you're going to Manchester, you'll still be required to commit to being in time for the 1500, or wait until the 1900 (or 1857 ThFO), unless you're happy to pay £180.

The best strategy is to book nothing, and examine the tickets available on your phone on your way to Euston Station. You might then secure an Advance for £10 - £15 less than the £180 single as you're arriving, or heading to the ticket office to ask about that Advance (which is something I've done before, and I received a very positive response).

 

[kieron]

I've attached a list of flows which are set by Avanti, which have an off peak return (SVR) fare, and where there is no single fare which costs no more than 70% of the SVR fare, rounded to the nearest 10p.

The vast majority of the fares either include a bus link, or validity on Heathrow Express, which may give some indication of how Avanti came to miss the deadline.

There are some which don't need anything like that. These include ones which seem like they should be easier to negotiate, such as Oxenholme-Carlisle and Oxenholme-Glasgow, and Bangor-Wilmslow route "Avanti only".

 

[Starmill]

The new fares are available to view under the normal retail channels now.

Some flies on West Midlands Trains and TransPennine Express who haven't uploaded changes in response, although there's still time before same-day sales come up, and next to no paying travellers anyway.

Carlisle to Glasgow Off Peak Day Single TransPennine Express Only £20.50
Carlisle to Glasgow Off Peak Single £19.10

Stafford to Rugby Off Peak Single WMR&LNR Only £24
Stafford to Rugby Super Off Peak Single WMR&LNR Only £20.50
Stafford to Rugby Off Peak Single £18.70

Several further examples, generally non-London luckily for them. Oops

 

[alistairlees]

TPE will be introducing SVH fares from 17th May.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE will be introducing SVH fares from 17th May.

It's like FirstGroup have got two arms and one doesn't know what the other one is doing

Genuine SVHs i.e. only available online, or just reducing singles to 50% of returns?

 

[Haywain]

It's like FirstGroup have got two arms and one doesn't know what the other one is doing

Genuine SVHs i.e. only available online, or just reducing singles to 50% of returns?

Genuine SVHs, only available as part of a return and only in advance.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if they've come up with a more descriptive ticket type name than 'Off Peak Single (Online)'?

Recent innovations in ticket type names at their sister company SWR produced 'Anytime Open Return', however, so I hold out little hope!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Genuine SVHs, only available as part of a return and only in advance.

For crying out loud. Is anyone managing FirstGroup?

 

[_toommm_]

TPE will be introducing SVH fares from 17th May.

Works very nice for me - I regularly miss my train home from work after finishing late. I for one will be pleased

 

[Hadders]

These are the same train companies that say the fares system is too complicated and needs simplifying, who simultaneously make things more complicated.

Of course they'll blame an outdated 1990s fares model, privatisation, changing passenger habits but they really should face up to the fact that they are making the fares structure more complicated.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course they'll blame an outdated 1990s fares model, privatisation, changing passenger habits but they really should face up to the fact that they are making the fares structure more complicated.

Indeed my favourite local example of this is Redcar Central to Middlesbrough. Once upon a time (around maybe fiveish years ago) there were two fares available. A day single and a day return both valid all day. Northern (in Serco-Abellio flavour) decided to introduce off-peak tickets so doubled the number of fares so there was now an Anytime Day Single, Off-Peak Day Single, Anytime Day Return and Off-Peak Day Return. The difference between the Anytime and Off-Peak tickets was a matter of pence (currently 80p for a return and 40p for a single) nice to have of course but not earth shattering.

Then TPE started running to Redcar Central and introduced a set of TPE Only Fares which has again doubled the number of available fares as the TPE only fares also come in Off-Peak and Anytime flavours. The difference in price is a little more noticeable (TPE Only Anytime Day Return is £1.10 cheaper for instance) but it's hardly like the unrestricted fares were massively expensive (£4.80 for an Any Permitted Anytime Day Return) and, of course, if you buy the TPE Only you have no way of excessing away that restriction to allow you to use Northern services if you wish. It would be brand new ticket.

So a journey of around ten minutes covering about eight miles has gone from having two easy to understand fares to eight fares* all with different restrictions and considerations for a potential passenger to think about (or not!) before choosing. And the industry finds itself wondering why people say fares are confusing!?

*There are actually a few more as TPE also have first class fares, there are standard and first class seasons and Northern's Duo product as well.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Well this will discourage from getting an Advance 1st class single coupled with a 2nd class SVH. I may aswell just get a SVR

 

[Bletchleyite]

So a journey of around ten minutes covering about eight miles has gone from having two easy to understand fares to eight fares* all with different restrictions and considerations for a potential passenger to think about (or not!) before choosing. And the industry finds itself wondering why people say fares are confusing!?

Precisely. TOC specific fares for local journeys like this are just madness and cause nothing but problems just so the odd person can save themselves 50p. There is no real scope for market differentiation like there is on a long distance service.

 

[Starmill]

Precisely. TOC specific fares for local journeys like this are just madness and cause nothing but problems just so the odd person can save themselves 50p. There is no real scope for market differentiation like there is on a long distance service.

You'll be pleased to hear that Avanti are whacking all of theirs up to a shade less than the interavailable tickets. This is often £0.10.

There are a handful of exceptions, such as Super Off Peak Return between London and Milton Keynes, where they are increasing to £0.10 less than the LNR Only fare (no interavailable fare exists), and Super Off Peak Single which is being cut to £0.10 less than the interavailable ticket (for a while, Avanti's dedicated ticket has been more expensive).

To put it another way, they will become rather expensive at best and absolutely appalling value for money at worst, which will probably see them dropping off after a while.

 

[MKB]

Checking our regular journey (when lockdown is over) from Nuneaton to Liverpool in the evening, returning early the following morning, two adults using a Two Together Railcard on the outbound, I see the total price has risen from £79.50 to £95.80.

We now have to buy an SVR instead of 2 x SVH. It's a price rise of over 20%.

Are these regulated fares? Do I have any redress?

 

[CrispyUK]

You'll be pleased to hear that Avanti are whacking all of theirs up to a shade less than the interavailable tickets. This is often £0.10.
...
To put it another way, they will become rather expensive at best and absolutely appalling value for money at worst, which will probably see them dropping off after a while.

Agreed, the Avanti only fares would no longer make sense for me between Rugby and Birmingham. Until this change, they gave you the option of saving a few quid, with the compromise of a reduced service frequency to choose from.

No point doing this if you can get the interavailable ticket for an extra 10p and be free to jump on the next train each way, whether that’s Avanti or WMT/LNR.

 

[Haywain]

Checking our regular journey (when lockdown is over) from Nuneaton to Liverpool in the evening, returning early the following morning, two adults using a Two Together Railcard on the outbound, I see the total price has risen from £79.50 to £95.80.

We now have to buy an SVR instead of 2 x SVH. It's a price rise of over 20%.

Are these regulated fares? Do I have any redress?

I believe the SVR is the regulated fare so, no, you have no redress.

 

[Hadders]

These Avanti fares increases demonstrate why it's important to keep fares regulation. While regulation is far from perfect if it was removed I dread to think what a cash strapped 'here today gone tomorrow' TOC would do to fares.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Checking our regular journey (when lockdown is over) from Nuneaton to Liverpool in the evening, returning early the following morning, two adults using a Two Together Railcard on the outbound, I see the total price has risen from £79.50 to £95.80.

We now have to buy an SVR instead of 2 x SVH. It's a price rise of over 20%.

Are these regulated fares? Do I have any redress?

You shouldn't have been able to buy two SVH the whole idea was that it was Advance one way SVH the other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Checking our regular journey (when lockdown is over) from Nuneaton to Liverpool in the evening, returning early the following morning, two adults using a Two Together Railcard on the outbound, I see the total price has risen from £79.50 to £95.80.

We now have to buy an SVR instead of 2 x SVH. It's a price rise of over 20%.

Are these regulated fares? Do I have any redress?

A SVR costs exactly the same as two SVHs, that's the whole point of SVHs, so I'm not quite understanding? Has the return been increased in price as well? If it has, that has no relevance to SVHs.