York Station - 5 questions

[NightatLaira]

Just thought I'd get 5 very simple questions about York station off my mind that have been bugging me for a while..

Is Platform 2 ever used these days for anything at all other than locomotive stabling?

Do they ever run an electric loco down some of the rarely used electrified bays? I.e. 1,6,7 and 8? For cleaning the tarnish off - or just to check the catenaries can still 'pick up the power'?

When the new East Coast clock-face timetable kicks into operation in 2011, I'm guessing Platform 1 is too long for a 91 unit so will terminating York services use platforms 6 & 7? If they use other 'through' platforms won't this just clog things up? And if they do use 6 & 7, where will the Northern DMUs which normally sit here head to?

Does anyone know of a decent hoard of pictures/maps/diagrams of the 'old York station' pre-1988, before the wires came in? Back in the day when it had 15 usable platforms etc? That would be really good to look at!

When the Caledonian Sleepers are put through York on a diversion have they ever been known to use the 'Holgate Freight Avoider' - or have they always gone through the station?

 

[9K43]

I have taken Charter Trains via Holgate in the up and down directions. 1 train on the down was a Rugby Special to Endingburgh which started at Castleford. The train went this way as the driver did not sign the route thru the Station. This driver was a KY man.
The other train was a Worksop Depot Special, which had been to Scotland.
I went pass to Newcastle, and worked this train via ECML (RR) then onto Worksop.
I have lots of slides /pics of York taken in the early 1980's, showing Peaks, Deltics , DMU's and the old layout.
We had a job on the first Thursday in the month, where an electric loco brought a train up from London (Dual braked Stock.) At York the leccy came off the train to be replaced by Green Arrow(VB) in Holgate via Platform 5 to Scarboro.
The leccy engine was placed anywhere out of the way for the back working, when we got back from the Coast.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Back in 1985 I rode the 10.30 Flying scotsman from King's Cross; non stop to Newcastle in those days, it took the avoiding line rather than run through the station.

 

[caliwag]

I'd forgotten about the KGX-YRK terminators.

Platform 2 and the siding next to it are only for Scarborough trains...the siding being used for overnight storage, tanking etc...though as First have a 185 depot in York, I suspect there's less of that. The railheads are still shiny though...will monitor.
Platform 2 and the siding are not wired. I cannot recall ever seeing a loco in there. Probably saving it for the proposed York/Beverley/Hull services...LOL

Platform 8 is the regularly used Harrogate bay. The bay next to it was lifted during the severe pruning!:-x

I have seen electric locos in bays 1,6,7 and 8...apparently as load banks (whatever that is!)

Platform 1 is usually for Hull trains and occasional Sheffield stoppers...rarely more than 2 cars. In the past I have seen two load bank NR electrics, and two 158 sets. It is long enough for a 91 set. I have seen a 125 set to the South West leave from there. Indeed the SW set via Doncaster left from there while the SW set via LDS left at virtually the same time from platform 6...quite a sight and sound as you can imagine screaming down to Colton Junction...nice bit of Virgin timetabling.

When YRK-KGS stoppers ran for a year or so using hired Eurostars, they sat around in the through platform 10.

On out-of-season Saturdays, platform 7 is host to an EMT set from St Pancras for most of the day, so perhaps that might point to a future use for next year's KGX.

They could of course just run them off to Holgate sidings. When there are steam and diesel excursions, and sometimes several on a Saturday, the blocking up of 10 doesn't seem to be an op. problem.

Some freights go through the station, apparently it's cheaper than to train drivers to learn the avoider...don't know how true that is, but it was an EWS man that told me. Not so long ago they were considering puting back one central road between 3 and 5, for that reason!...pinch-of-salt time! Not enough clearance for two roads it seems.

Sorry, a bit long winded there...but that's all I know!

 

[142094]

1) I've seen platform 2 used when for a Scarborough service when there was some disruption, a service from Scarborough came into platform 2 and then headed back, instead of going through to Liverpool. Not sure if anything is timetabled to use it in the early morning.

2) I've seen a 91 set in platform 6 or 7 a few years back, think it was an additional train for some reason, might be due to the races. The Network Rail ice breaker has been in platform 1 a few times, and I've seen a Freightliner 86 in there before after working either to or from Mossend.

3) Not sure how long the turnaround would be, but could always put it in 10 or 11 and route other trains through the other platforms. If it does go in 6 or 7 there would be the Blackpool North train to move, and TPEs sometimes use those platforms.

4) Someone will probably have some links

5) Think I've heard of it going through the station for a crew change, but not seen this myself.

 

[4SRKT]

As far as number 4 is concerned I don't have links, but I can describe it well enough from memory

1-3) South facing bays on up side of station. 1 was lifted years before I became aware of railways in the mid-70s. 2 is now lifted and 3 is the current 1. These bays were used for Selby, Doncaster and Hull local services (some of which were loco-hauled), also by the nightly Shrewsbury TPO service.

4-7) Bays only facing the Scarborough line. There were so many provided to cope with the volume of holiday traffic, and trains to Hull via Pocklington, although in my life I can only ever recall getting a train off 4 or 5 once. These two were mainly used to stable stock, and formed a quiet backwater in the station. There was also a centre road/run round loop between 6 and 7. All lifted now except 7 which is the current 2. 4 and 5 now filled in and used as a car park.

8 ) Long platform corresponding to today's 3 and 4. In those days 3 was 8a and 4 8b. Unlike today trains could (and did) get out of 8b southbound if a train was in 8a because there were crossovers onto the two centre roads between 8 and 9.

9) Today's platform 5, was then longer at the north end and divided into 9a (south end) and 9b (north). As with platform 8, trains could use 9a and 9b simultaneously by crossing to and from the centre roads. Trains from 9b could not access the Scarborough line though. The platform was shortened at the north end on remodelling to reduce the severity of the curve in from the North.

10,11) South facing bays on down side of station. Today's 6 and 7. Used by terminating DMUs from Leeds and Sheffield, and terminating HSTs from London or off the NESW route.

12,13) North facing bays on down side of station. 12 now lifted (saw limited use on the infrequent York > Darlington DMU service). 13 is today's platform 8, and was then as now the Harrogate bay.

14-16) Today's platforms 9-11. There was a centre road between 14 and 15. 14 was the main northbound ECML platform, and I don't think had bi-directional operation. 15 and 16 weren't used that often except by terminating loco-hauled trains off the NESW route and excursions or reliefs (which were more common then than now).

South of the station there were 4 running lines (plus various sidings and loops) as far as Holgate Junction, rather than today's 3. The fact that the York > Leeds line is effectively single track for the first few hundred yards is a serious failing of the remodelling, that seems to have concentrated on the Doncaster roads as being the more important. At Holgate Junction four lines came in from York Yard and the carriage works, two of which merged with the Leeds running lines, and two ran parallel, making six roads up to Dringhouses Yard. Multiple crossovers allowed traffics from these various lines to merge and redistribute themselves. The 4 holding sidings at the Dicky Bridge only led onto the left hand down line into York Yard, and it was impossible to get into the station from them (as is the case with 3 of the 4 today).

There was also a double track line from York Yard round towards the depot, which joined the roads through the station just north of the end of platforms 15 and 16. The centre of the triangle thus formed had once been an MPD with roundhouse in steam days, but the site was a derelict mess by the 1980s.

Most freight avoided the station, but there was a flow of several trains a day from the Rowntree's factory, served off the Foss Islands branch off the Scarborough line. These were tripped through the centre roads by a class 08 to Dringhouses, where the vans were pushed over the hump to be attached to various Speedlink workings. There was also sand traffic to the Redfearn's glassworks siding at the end of the Foss Islands branch, which was usually worked by a 31. Occasional goods workings persisted on the Scarborough line itself into the 1980s, with 31s or 37s doing the honours.

 

[142094]

Anyone got a map of where the old Foss Islands branch used to run from? I'm particularly interesting in where Layerthorpe station and the Foss Islands goods depot were, as I probably live nearby them now.

 

[4SRKT]

Anyone got a map of where the old Foss Islands branch used to run from? I'm particularly interesting in where Layerthorpe station and the Foss Islands goods depot were, as I probably live nearby them now.

Layerthorpe station was on Hallfield Road, on the right hand side just beyond the point where the railway passes under the road. The Foss Islands goods depot was where the James Street industrial area is now. The Morrison's on Foss Islands Road backs onto the site. There used to be wooden unloading staiths there until some point in the 1980s where the sand was tipped out into lorries. The long brick wall on the left hand side of the north end of FIR going south was the city gasworks, which was rail connected. Redfearn's glassworks was by the River Foss where the Novotel is now on Fishergate, and the sand was moved the last few hundred yards by road.

North of Hallfield Road the line passes under Layerthorpe near its junction with Hawthorn Grove and Glen Road. It's a cycle path from this point, and passes under Heworth Green and parallel with and to the west of Dodsworth Avenue. At the Heworth Green end of Dodsworth Avenue was the old NER laundry, and linen from British Transport Hotels was brought here by rail until (I think) some time in the 1960s. Further on the line/cycle track crosses the River Foss and Huntington Road on an impressive girder bridge. After this it passes under Haxby Road, and between here and Wigginton Road was the Rowntree Halt, on a loop to the north of the line. This station had a passenger service to York and Selby each day into the early 80s, and I have a dim childhood memory of walking along Haxby Road with my father and seeing a 2-car DMU waiting at the platform. The connection into the factory was also here, and was a facing junction if you were travelling towards York. From the Haxby Road bridge the branch was double track for the last few hundred yards and joined the Scarborough line just south of the Crichton Avenue overbridge, at Burton Stone Junction.

There was also once a short branch from the Foss Islands line between the Layerthorpe and Heworth Green overbridges. Going toward York it trailed in from the left (west) and served the York County Hospital, which is now the Yorkshire Water building at the back of Sainsbury's car park. It crossed the Foss on a bridge, whose large circular metal supports are still visible on the opposite side of the river as you walk along Foss Bank. I don't know when this closed, but there was no more trace of it than there is today by the time of my childhood. Another short line trailed in from the west by the gasworks, and crossed FIR on a level crossing. This served the flour mill called Leatham's Mill, that is now riverside apartments that can be reached by the footpath along the Foss from FIR towards Fossgate and Stonebow. I don't know when this closed, but I can remember in the 80s the rails from the crossing still being set into the surface of FIR.

Going the other way from Layerthorpe, the Derwent Valley Light Railway ran parallel and to the south of Fifth Avenue. It passed under Melrosegate by St Aelred's church and headed towards the first station at Osbaldwick. The alignment is now also partly a cycle track. A number of my friends went to St Aelred's school, which in the 1970s was adjacent to the church, and have memories of Joem passing by on the short-lived DVLR steam service. A couple of them got the cane off the headmaster for throwing stones at it!

(((((local knowledge)))))

 

[142094]

So on a current map, would the boundaries of the Foss Islands goods yard area be something like Foss Islands Road, Lawrence Street, James Street and Layerthorpe? I see where you mean about the line along Fifth Avenue, I use Melrosegate to get to Monks Cross Asda and have noticed the bridge before next to the church. Might have to have a walk along one day to see what else is there.

 

[4SRKT]

So on a current map, would the boundaries of the Foss Islands goods yard area be something like Foss Islands Road, Lawrence Street, James Street and Layerthorpe? I see where you mean about the line along Fifth Avenue, I use Melrosegate to get to Monks Cross Asda and have noticed the bridge before next to the church. Might have to have a walk along one day to see what else is there.

The goods depot didn't come up as far as Layerthorpe. Morrison's would be a better northern delineation. Otherwise, FIR and James Street were the boundaries. It didn't come down as far as Lawrence Street itself either. I remember as a youth, if you stood on the city walls by the Red Tower on FIR, you were pretty much opposite where the sand unloading staiths were. Odd now to think of a class 31 standing there!

Whereabouts do you live BTW?

 

[NightatLaira]

Thank you everyone for some truly insightful stuff there!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Oldest station plan I seem to have is from around 2000, which is probs not much use, showing platforms 1 - 11. But if it would be on any use, PM me.

 

[4SRKT]

Thank you everyone for some truly insightful stuff there!

'S all right! I might not know that much about the world in general, but I know York and its railway history as well as you know your way to the nearest local shop!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thinking about it, I've got a photo taken in about 1986 when Pacers and Sprinters were brand new of a 142, 144 and 150/2 stabled in platform 5 (one of the rarely used Scarborough bays) at York. They were there for a demo of the new rolling stock the following day, but the shot shows nicely the extent of that part of York station before the remodelling. I'll have to get it scanned and uploaded.

Also got numerous photos at Holgate Junction and at the holding sidings by the old York Racecourse station, showing the complexity of the layout. Two particularly nice ones of D200 on 9th March 1985 leaving on the 'Whistler Finale' tour, with steam leaking badly from the boiler. An emotional day and worth getting out of bed early on a Saturday for! Need to scan and upload these as well.

 

[142094]

Whereabouts do you live BTW?

For another 5 days I live on Wellington Street, just behind Lawrence Street. Normally use Morrisons for the weekly shop.

Thanks for the info, always interesting to find out new things. Went to Whitby a few weeks ago and looked at the old NER map, which had Foss Islands station on it, which got me wondering a bit about where it might have been.

 

[4SRKT]

For another 5 days I live on Wellington Street, just behind Lawrence Street. Normally use Morrisons for the weekly shop.

Thanks for the info, always interesting to find out new things. Went to Whitby a few weeks ago and looked at the old NER map, which had Foss Islands station on it, which got me wondering a bit about where it might have been.

Sometime in the next 5 days I suggest you explore on foot the full extent of this interesting ex-industrial quarter of York. Defo walk as much as you can of the trackbeds of the Foss Islands branch and DVLR.

Is the NER map at York still there? York station is so familiar to me that I just sort of glide through without noticing anything these days.

 

[142094]

Aye it is, will have a look around. Can always do it back when Uni starts again in October. Are any of the buildings or stations still standing along towards Osbaldwick?

 

[4SRKT]

Aye it is, will have a look around. Can always do it back when Uni starts again in October. Are any of the buildings or stations still standing along towards Osbaldwick?

I don't know TBH. I've never expolored beyong Tang Hall Lane. I grew up in Holgate, so until I went to secondary school in the city centre and met people from other parts of town, the area beyond Layerthorpe bridge was a mystery to me. Kind of 'here be dragons' on my mental map.

 

[142094]

Until the other day I'd never been over Holgate Rd bridge, was only because I stopped off for a cuppa at a burger van on the A19 at Skelton and he advised me to go along the A1237 and A59. Normally I'd just stick to the A19 and go through Clifton, but he said to go this way instead. Think it took an extra 10 minutes to what it normally does. Still, means I now know my way around another part of York, might go back to Holgate Rd bridge and take some photos. Might also try that footbridge next to Holgate sidings as well.

 

[4SRKT]

Until the other day I'd never been over Holgate Rd bridge, was only because I stopped off for a cuppa at a burger van on the A19 at Skelton and he advised me to go along the A1237 and A59. Normally I'd just stick to the A19 and go through Clifton, but he said to go this way instead. Think it took an extra 10 minutes to what it normally does. Still, means I now know my way around another part of York, might go back to Holgate Rd bridge and take some photos. Might also try that footbridge next to Holgate sidings as well.

I crossed that footbridge every day on the way to school. My parents almost bought the house next to it in 1976, which would have given great views of accelerating deltics from my bedroom window! The bridge was there because this was the location of York Racecourse station, the big flower bed sign of which is the only other remains.

 

[142094]

Never knew there was another station there, seems a bit odd when you think the main station isn't that far away.

 

[4SRKT]

It was only used on race days. It cut down the walk to the Knavesmire quite a bit, but is still some distance away.

 

[142094]

That's what I was thinking, still quite a walk along. The York Pullman and the other bus companies seem to do a roaring trade getting people there these days.

 

[4SRKT]

Best ever railway day in York was when the pope visiting in 1982. Road traffic into the city was severely restricted, and people were effectively made to use the train. The pope gave his address on the Knavesmire, and afterwards people had to walk back to the station. My father and and I walked into town afterwards, and the queue of people for the station was about 10 wide, and stretched along the middle of Station Road and up Queen St, the half way along Blossom St! I've never seen anything like it: literally thousands of people. The trains were queueing at seemingly every signal to get in, and even with 15 available platforms the numbers of people took hours to process. Standing at the footbridge at Holgate sidings was awesome as train after train trundled in and out of the station every couple of minutes. I seem to remember a lot of 31s heading a lot of pretty grotty looking Mk I SKs!

 

[142094]

Funnily enough I have the same idea for a project of mine. Basically the plan would be to stop car access to the station, in order to see if people would use public transport more. Something along the lines of a either a fixed barrier only allowing taxis and buses, or a congestion charge designed to get people onto a bus.

 

[caliwag]

Tried to reply to this re pope's visit, to be told I cannot...timed out or some crap...please refresh...how the hell do I refresh? I haven't got time for this.

 

[4SRKT]

Tried to reply to this re pope's visit, to be told I cannot...

Maybe Ian Paisley has become one of the mods?

 

[caliwag]

Think I must have tried to respond on quick reply and ran out of allotted time...anyway as I was saying, came across a Modern Railways from August 1982 outlining the success of the special train planning for the York papal visit...only 180 additional trains! not to mention ECS working, and the arrival from the North, mid-PM, of a row dead 26s destined for scrap.

Now that was the original layout of course, when there was a curve from the Scarborough crossing round to the Holgate avoider. Also there were a lot of stabling sidings at Holgate and Dringhouses then.

The article outlines all the timings of arrivals and returns and the intervening stabling points ranging from Morpeth!, Redcar, Newcastle and Sheffield.

Great credit to the timetabling team...3 dedicated for some weeks, and the whole arrangement for return queueing, to say nothing of the logistics of cleaning and catering, for upwards of 30.000 passengers, or pilgrims as the article puts it.

 

[4SRKT]

Think I must have tried to respond on quick reply and ran out of allotted time...anyway as I was saying, came across a Modern Railways from August 1982 outlining the success of the special train planning for the York papal visit...only 180 additional trains! not to mention ECS working, and the arrival from the North, mid-PM, of a row dead 26s destined for scrap.

Now that was the original layout of course, when there was a curve from the Scarborough crossing round to the Holgate avoider. Also there were a lot of stabling sidings at Holgate and Dringhouses then.

The article outlines all the timings of arrivals and returns and the intervening stabling points ranging from Morpeth!, Redcar, Newcastle and Sheffield.

Great credit to the timetabling team...3 dedicated for some weeks, and the whole arrangement for return queueing, to say nothing of the logistics of cleaning and catering, for upwards of 30.000 passengers, or pilgrims as the article puts it.

I've got a number of copies of MR from that era, but I'm missing that one. Is there any way you could scan this article and e-mail it to me? I'd be very grateful.

 

[NightatLaira]

when exactly did they close the spur from the scarboro' line to layerthope/rowntrees/pocklington etc?

would be amazing if they could bring it back!

And re: the York Racecourse station - which if I'm understanding right is by the Mount School. Why didn't they put a proper station at the 7 furlong start near where the Riccall Freight line used to run (where the solar system is now)?

 

[4SRKT]

when exactly did they close the spur from the scarboro' line to layerthope/rowntrees/pocklington etc?

would be amazing if they could bring it back!

And re: the York Racecourse station - which if I'm understanding right is by the Mount School. Why didn't they put a proper station at the 7 furlong start near where the Riccall Freight line used to run (where the solar system is now)?

The line to Pocklington and Hull left the Scarborough line further north, near New Earswick. Link Road between Haxby and Huntington Roads is built on the alignment, and nearby is Station Avenue, named for the former New Earswick station. This line was a Beeching casualty, one of the more misjudged ones, as anyone who's sat in a traffic jam on the A1079 at either its York or Hull end will agree.

The DVLR shut for good in 1981, after 69 years of totally independent existence. There was a grain drying firm at Dunnington who was its last major customer, and which closed in that year. The passenger steam service only ran for three summers between 1977 and 1979, and ceased due to lack of interest. This possibly shows a quite startling lack of initiative for such a thing to fail in a tourist honeypot like York. If it were to run now, I'm sure it would succeed. To my shame I never went on it, although I was only 8 years old when it ended. The company had other interests besides railways (sale of fuel for one), and carried on operating out of Layerthorpe station for a few more years. The Foss Islands branch lasted until Redfearn's glass closed down in 1984 IIRR. The Rowntree Halt carried its last passenger train in 1988, round about the time that Rowntree's was bought by Nestlé and switched its transport operations to road, thereby sealing the fate of Dringhouses hump marshalling yard. The usual sorry tale of the decline of British industry and its concommitant decimation of railway freight that you can find in any town or city in the 1980s

I guess the 'Racecourse' station was where it was rather than at Chaloner's Whin (where the Leeds line and the old ECML via Riccal diverged) because trains would have had to be slowed down too much there. Chaloner's Whin may be closer as the crow flies to any part of the racecourse circuit, but to walk from there to the grandstand is further than from the Mount School. Also, there were six roads by the Mount School (platforms on the two outer roads only), so it was probably simply less disruptive to have it there rather than anywhere else. All this is just guesswork though.