Sunday Trading Laws Discussion

[Puffing Devil]

Lots of industries work a 7 day week. What makes retail special?

Nothing - the context of the discussion was revolving around retail.

It's worth noting that retail, and to some extent leisure has moved into a 7-day working week, other industries have always had that working model and people joining up many years ago expected a 7-day week.

 

[Iskra]

I was not complaining about price rises - I was highlighting the consequences of an increase in pay. Pay rises need to be funded and I would be prepared to bet it won't be profits that are cut, which means either the staff or the consumer needs to pay. That's not an attack on retail workers.

Only the state pension has (for now) a degree of index linking. Many people have workplace pensions which do not provide for inflation protection.

There have been multiple government-driven inflation-beating pay rises for retail staff (and others) in recent years through the National Living Wage. I’m yet to notice any hyper-inflation or otherwise commercially-sound operations becoming insolvent.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Is it? I'm not convinced.

Standard working time arrangements – a five-day week of 40 hours, worked Monday to Friday – is still the norm for most Europeans.

 

[Puffing Devil]

There have been multiple government-driven inflation-beating pay rises for retail staff (and others) in recent years through the National Living Wage. I’m yet to notice any hyper-inflation or otherwise commercially-sound operations becoming insolvent.

Where did I mention hyperinflation or insolvency?

Commercially sound businesses return a profit. To deliver a profit a business most cover its costs. If wages rise then profits drop unless another variable in the equation changes. How do you believe that retailers will cover the reduction in profits?

 

[Iskra]

Where did I mention hyperinflation or insolvency?

Commercially sound businesses return a profit. To deliver a profit a business most cover its costs. If wages rise then profits drop unless another variable in the equation changes. How do you believe that retailers will cover the reduction in profits?

By opening longer on a Sunday

...or a barely noticeable price rise, spread across all 7-days of the week.

 

[Puffing Devil]

By opening longer on a Sunday

...or a barely noticeable price rise, spread across all 7-days of the week.

You're making the assumption that you will sell more by being open longer. Maybe for some outlets, not for others.

 

[Andrew S]

Standard working time arrangements – a five-day week of 40 hours, worked Monday to Friday – is still the norm for most Europeans.

Interesting. Things may have changed since 2010 though. Looking at the graph on p4 it seems that people working 34 or fewer hours almost equal, or possibly exceed those on the traditional 40 hours. Also nothing specifically refers to the 9-5 which is assumed to be standard.

As an anecdotal example, I work 40 hours, over four ten hour days out of six.

 

[Iskra]

You're making the assumption that you will sell more by being open longer. Maybe for some outlets, not for others.

That's fine and that's why it's an option, unlike being compelled to be closed. Businesses should be able to make their own decisions based on likely demand and whether they think they can profit from it.

I run a store in a large Shopping Centre that doesn't open until 11am on a Sunday. Every week it's busy from 0930 with people who think it will be open, or opens at 10. The demand is there. My store isn't restricted to 6 hours trading, so we do very well out of opening earlier than everyone else and we are busy all the way until closing time, where we have to ask people to leave

 

[Adam Williams]

Why do shops need to close on a Sunday? It's a relic from a byegone age.

Perhaps those people who don't want to go shopping on Sundays can simply choose not to and those who want to can. There is clearly plenty of demand for shopping on Sundays, so why not just make it a normal trading day and let retailers choose their own hours? (Which would probably still be shorter as there is little demand pre-9am). Let the market decide...

If you work in retail, Sunday is a rubbish day to have off because everything is closed or busy because of the short opening hours. And why should I be forced to have every Sunday off, when I can use a midweek day instead and have a much more productive day and do the things I want without the constraints of Sunday trading?

+1, the Sunday trading laws feel pretty antiquated in 2020.

Sunday shopping always feels ridiculously busy in the larger shops too, because folks are forced to shop inside a much narrower time window. This is undesirable right now for obvious reasons, but current times aside - I've always found it a horrible experience when trying to nip in and grab something quickly on a Sunday.

All the current laws do is encourage overcrowding and building of smaller "Metro" shops (which are typically overpriced and stock less stuff) which conveniently happen to be small enough to not be affected by the legislation. And why is it fine for online grocery deliveries to take place after 4PM?

Like a few other things, the laws on this seem much more sensible in Scotland.

 

[Hadders]

Bear in mind that one of the reasons for the Sunday Trading Act restricting large shops to 6 hours trading is to protect small shops (defined as less than 3,180 sq.ft) and level the playing field a little.

 

[Comstock]

Like a few other things, the laws on this seem much more sensible in Scotland.

Along with quite a bit of the rest of the anglo-sphere including Ireland, New Zealand and many parts of the US, Canada and Oz.

New Zealand, for example, only has trading restrictions at Easter and Christmas, and a compulsory half day on ANZAC day.

Personally I would favour full deregulation along with premium pay and a continued right to opt out.

But it isn't something I'd go to the barricades over- I can live with things as they are.

 

[Adam Williams]

Bear in mind that one of the reasons for the Sunday Trading Act restricting large shops to 6 hours trading is to protect small shops (defined as less than 3,180 sq.ft) and level the playing field a little.

Would it perhaps have made more sense to do this based on the company's turnover/number of employees, if the goal was to protect other, independent shops on the high street?

 

[Hadders]

Would it perhaps have made more sense to do this based on the company's turnover/number of employees, if the goal was to protect other, independent shops on the high street?

It would get far too complicated for businesses close to the limit. Would it apply to whole company turnover or individual sites?

We've had a successful year, turnover's gone up so we've got to close earlier on Sundays now and make some of you redundant.
Turnover's going up so we need more staff. But if we employ more we'll have to close earlier on Sundays....

The current law isn't that bad. Believe it or not there's little appetite among the big 4 supermarkets to relax things either.

 

[Adam Williams]

The current law isn't that bad. Believe it or not there's little appetite among the big 4 supermarkets to relax things either.

I'm not surprised there's not much appetite to relax the laws given it would suddenly destroy the competitive advantage gained by opening Sainsbury's Local, Tesco Express, M&S Simply Food and Little Waitrose stores. My understanding is that these smaller stores are less efficient to run than the larger super-stores and tend to have higher prices as a result.

It would get far too complicated for businesses close to the limit. Would it apply to whole company turnover or individual sites?

We've had a successful year, turnover's gone up so we've got to close earlier on Sundays now and make some of you redundant.
Turnover's going up so we need more staff. But if we employ more we'll have to close earlier on Sundays....

I guess I was more thinking of your local family-run corner shop here where I wouldn't expect order of magnitude increases in turnover or employee numbers.

You could apply it to the same definition of a "small company" that Companies House uses.

 

[Mojo]

I think people would be quite surprised how many shops are smaller than 280 square metres (the limit) but voluntarily choose to have restricted opening hours on Sundays.

The talk earlier in the thread about restrictive opening hours - went past Sainsburys opposite Holborn station earlier today and noticed that the Sainsburys Local (formerly Sainsburys Central when Sainsburys were sensible about their shops that are larger than a convenience shop but smaller than a Superstore) is open on Sundays from 1pm to 7pm. I looked on the gov website and their floor area is 247.3 m2 - so their hours are unrestricted (and if they were they wouldn't be allowed to open past 6 anyway).

One other thing I was thinking about is the "preview" / "browsing" session of halfhour early but not allowing any transactions through the checkouts until on the hour - I seem to remember growing up that shops made a big song and dance about this, but I can't recall seeing a sign about it in ages. Is this still a thing?

Whilst researching my last point I saw an interesting snippit on the Morrisons website: "On Sundays, the majority of our stores, we will open at 9am for our very hard working NHS workers to shop. We will open at 9.30am for all other customers to shop normally. Therefore, during the period of the Covid-19 outbreak, the Sunday browsing hour is suspended, as you can shop normally from 9.30am each Sunday." This seems to imply they will allow any transactions through their checkouts anytime after opening - although I don't recall any publicity about the law being suspended.

 

[Adam Williams]

Whilst researching my last point I saw an interesting snippit on the Morrisons website: "On Sundays, the majority of our stores, we will open at 9am for our very hard working NHS workers to shop. We will open at 9.30am for all other customers to shop normally. Therefore, during the period of the Covid-19 outbreak, the Sunday browsing hour is suspended, as you can shop normally from 9.30am each Sunday." This seems to imply they will allow any transactions through their checkouts anytime after opening - although I don't recall any publicity about the law being suspended.

I did read that some supermarkets were technically flouting this law in how they've implemented it and are not expecting it to be enforced, but I don't know how much truth there is to that.

I think councils enforcing this right now would not be in the public interest, and they'd probably get a lot of backlash. Particularly if all or some of the trading window is aimed at frontline NHS workers.

Not to mention it's a questionable case to tie up the courts with at a time where it's difficult to hold trials...

 

[Comstock]

I think people would be quite surprised how many shops are smaller than 280 square metres (the limit) but voluntarily choose to have restricted opening hours on Sundays.

A lot of them will be in shopping centres with bigger stores (Intus or Westfields for example) and it makes sense to apply the same opening hours for the whole centre.

Also I think a lot of stand alone Argos stores would squeak under 280 meters if measured, many are only the same size as a Tesco Express.

 

[Hadders]

One other thing I was thinking about is the "preview" / "browsing" session of halfhour early but not allowing any transactions through the checkouts until on the hour - I seem to remember growing up that shops made a big song and dance about this, but I can't recall seeing a sign about it in ages. Is this still a thing?

Some shops still open at 9am or 9.30am for browsing. Transactions through the tills cannot take place until 10am (or whatever time the stores open)

Whilst researching my last point I saw an interesting snippit on the Morrisons website: "On Sundays, the majority of our stores, we will open at 9am for our very hard working NHS workers to shop. We will open at 9.30am for all other customers to shop normally. Therefore, during the period of the Covid-19 outbreak, the Sunday browsing hour is suspended, as you can shop normally from 9.30am each Sunday." This seems to imply they will allow any transactions through their checkouts anytime after opening - although I don't recall any publicity about the law being suspended.

Morrisons have openly said they are breaking the Sunday Trading Act at the moment but given what's going on they are highly unlikely to be prosecuted as it wouldn't be in the public interest.

There was a relaxation of the Sunday Trading Act in 2012 that coincided with the Olympics. I was working as an Area Manager for a large national retailer at the time and I thought this would become permanent. The stores that were in scope of the Sunday Trading Act opened longer hours and we did start to see an increase in business, probably at the expense of the independent local shops nearby. As it happened the relaxation didn't become permanent and we returned to 6 hours trading on Sundays.

 

[Busaholic]

Some shops still open at 9am or 9.30am for browsing. Transactions through the tills cannot take place until 10am (or whatever time the stores open)



Morrisons have openly said they are breaking the Sunday Trading Act at the moment but given what's going on they are highly unlikely to be prosecuted as it wouldn't be in the public interest.

There was a relaxation of the Sunday Trading Act in 2012 that coincided with the Olympics. I was working as an Area Manager for a large national retailer at the time and I thought this would become permanent. The stores that were in scope of the Sunday Trading Act opened longer hours and we did start to see an increase in business, probably at the expense of the independent local shops nearby. As it happened the relaxation didn't become permanent and we returned to 6 hours trading on Sundays.

My local Morrison's opens an hour earlier on a Sunday (9 a.m. instead of 10 a.m) for NHS workers, asking them to use 'the left hand entrance' which is not obviously located, the left hand side being an exit with outward opening automatic doors that wouldn't get triggered! I'm not a expert on Sunday Trading Laws, but I've always taken an interest in them, having been a shopkeeper for thirty years, and I'm fairly certain that this exceptional arrangement is probably unlawful, but unless there was a prosecution, which is unlikely, it won't get tested!

 

[Jamesrob637]

I know that shops were mainly closed on Sundays until 1994, when I was 9 (I can "just about" remember having to go shopping with my parents Monday to Saturday only), however did shops close on the four Bank Holiday Mondays plus Good Friday prior to 1994 also?

(Let's leave Boxing Day and New Year's Day trading for another thread, as I'm sure almost every forum member here will disapprove of opening on those days, myself included!)

 

[Hadders]

Prior to the 1994 Act shops were allowed to open on Sundays but the items that could be sold were restricted. This was ok in the era of smaller more specialist shops but it didn't really work with larger shops that sold a wider range of goods. One famously quoted example was it was legal to but a 'top shelf' magazine but not a bible.

In the early 1990s some of the large retailers started to flout the law and open on Sundays. This caused a considerable amount if uproar and there was a large 'Keep Sunday Special' campaign. Some retailers were prosecuted for opening on Sundays but I seem to remember the penalties for doing so were so small it was worth their while just paying them and continuing to open.

There was much concern about the viability of small shops if large retailers were allowed to open unrestricted hours on Sundays, as well as the overall impact on the fabric of the country. The eventual compromise was the Sunday Trading Act 1994 which allowed large shops to open for only 6 hours. The penalties for breaking the law are large and in over 25 years so large retailer has sought to break ranks.

It's worth pointing out that Sunday trading doesn't just impact shops and their staff. You also need deliveries so distribution centres and their suppliers need to work, you need better public transport for workers and customers, parking attendants, street cleaners, cash in transit collections, security guards, retail support centres and field management support. The list could go on.

Overall we probably have the balance about right. I certainly wouldn't want to see Sunday trading hours increase, it would end up with Sundays being no different to any other day.

 

[Busaholic]

I know that shops were mainly closed on Sundays until 1994, when I was 9 (I can "just about" remember having to go shopping with my parents Monday to Saturday only), however did shops close on the four Bank Holiday Mondays plus Good Friday prior to 1994 also?

(Let's leave Boxing Day and New Year's Day trading for another thread, as I'm sure almost every forum member here will disapprove of opening on those days, myself included!)

I don't think there was any legal restriction on opening on Bank Holidays, but Good Friday opening was seen as an absolute no-no in much of the country well into the 1990s, with a very few exceptions e.g. when I lived in London the local baker opened on Good Friday morning purely for the sale of hot cross buns which they sold ONLY on that day! There were boycotts of some shops that opened, even if only for a few hours, in towns like the one I'd moved to.

 

[DelW]

I don't think there was any legal restriction on opening on Bank Holidays, but Good Friday opening was seen as an absolute no-no in much of the country well into the 1990s, with a very few exceptions e.g. when I lived in London the local baker opened on Good Friday morning purely for the sale of hot cross buns which they sold ONLY on that day! There were boycotts of some shops that opened, even if only for a few hours, in towns like the one I'd moved to.

I think there may have been regional variations in that. Growing up in the west Midlands in the 1950s and '60s, the Easter break was Monday and Tuesday, not Friday and Monday, which I think was dictated by the motor industry not wanting two weeks' production to be affected. I'm not certain how that affected shops, but I think they were probably open on Good Friday and closed on Easter Tuesday as well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is a bit logic to why one shop might open 10-4 and another 11-5...it maximizes shopping hours.

Morrisons have two big stores quite near to each other in Whitley Bay, so one does 10-4 and one does 11-5. I'm surprised more supermarkets don't do something similar.

 

[Hadders]

I think there may have been regional variations in that. Growing up in the west Midlands in the 1950s and '60s, the Easter break was Monday and Tuesday, not Friday and Monday, which I think was dictated by the motor industry not wanting two weeks' production to be affected. I'm not certain how that affected shops, but I think they were probably open on Good Friday and closed on Easter Tuesday as well.

This is definately a north south thing. In the north shops seemed to close on Easter Monday and Tuesday. In the south closing on Friday and Monday was the norm. As far as I know this was by union agreements and custom and practice rather than legislation.

WHen I was a shop manager for a large national retailer I managed shops in Northampton that were closed on the Monday and Tuesday, a few years later I moved to manage a store in Buckinghamshire and it was Friday and Monday closing.

Morrisons have two big stores quite near to each other in Whitley Bay, so one does 10-4 and one does 11-5. I'm surprised more supermarkets don't do something similar.

Tesco have two stores in Stevenage. One opens 10-4, the other 12-6.

 

[Mojo]

Morrisons have two big stores quite near to each other in Whitley Bay, so one does 10-4 and one does 11-5. I'm surprised more supermarkets don't do something similar.

I was under the impression that they did.

Having lived in two separate towns with 2x Tesco’s shops, one always opened at 10am and the other at 11am.

 

[gswindale]

I was under the impression that they did.

Having lived in two separate towns with 2x Tesco’s shops, one always opened at 10am and the other at 11am.

Whereas here, my 4 nearest Tesco superstores all open 10-4 (all within 4 miles of my house) according to the Tesco website. Although the one furthest away is next to an M&S that is apparently open 11-5.

 

[underbank]

Bear in mind that one of the reasons for the Sunday Trading Act restricting large shops to 6 hours trading is to protect small shops (defined as less than 3,180 sq.ft) and level the playing field a little.

Given the dramatic fall in small shops over the past few decades, I think that ship has long sailed and is no longer relevant.

Not to mention that most small shops weren't open on Sundays anyway back then. I remember having to drive around with my parents trying to find a newsagents that was open if we wanted anything - our local grocery shops, bakeries, off licences, post office, etc were all firmly closed.

At the end of the day, it's all about religion which is crazy given that most people aren't practising church goers anymore.

Has Scotland seen a much bigger rate of small shop closures compared with the rest of the UK? No, thought not!

 

[Qwerty133]

Given the dramatic fall in small shops over the past few decades, I think that ship has long sailed and is no longer relevant.

Not to mention that most small shops weren't open on Sundays anyway back then. I remember having to drive around with my parents trying to find a newsagents that was open if we wanted anything - our local grocery shops, bakeries, off licences, post office, etc were all firmly closed.

At the end of the day, it's all about religion which is crazy given that most people aren't practising church goers anymore.

Has Scotland seen a much bigger rate of small shop closures compared with the rest of the UK? No, thought not!

Even the religious objections are slowly disappearing and senior Church of England figures have suggested that they are open to a relaxation in Sunday trading laws. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/02/church-will-accept-shopping-time-sundays/

 

[Hadders]

Given the dramatic fall in small shops over the past few decades, I think that ship has long sailed and is no longer relevant.

I disagree. Many more small stores would have closed over the last 25 years if Sunday trading was unrestricted in large stores.

Not to mention that most small shops weren't open on Sundays anyway back then. I remember having to drive around with my parents trying to find a newsagents that was open if we wanted anything - our local grocery shops, bakeries, off licences, post office, etc were all firmly closed.

In my experience most stores were open although to be fair many only opened until lunchtime.

At the end of the day, it's all about religion which is crazy given that most people aren't practising church goers anymore.

It isn't all about religion. ALthough the church was a player in the Keep Sunday Special campaign they we by no means the only active participant.

Has Scotland seen a much bigger rate of small shop closures compared with the rest of the UK? No, thought not!

Comparisons between Scotland and England are difficult in this area. Much of Scotland is very rural and there are fewer large stores in area like the HIghlands.