Govenment Briefing 23rd May - Reversing Beeching Cuts

[MarlowDonkey]

In addition, adding stops at Wellington and/or Cullompton on a limited number of Paddington trains would effectively make them no slower than they were before the IET timings were applied.

Earlier this year, I was checking out some fare options for travel between Reading and Exeter. What I found is that whilst many trains are non-stop from Reading to Taunton, there are also trains that stop at Newbury, Westbury, Castle Cary etc. When these reach Taunton, they sit around for twenty minutes or so and there's a Cross Country service that gives an earlier arrival in Exeter. They would then follow the Cross Country service to Exeter.

If there are loops at Wellington, Cullompton or both, they could stop these semi fasts at the new stations.

 

[Stathern Jc]

That's a pretty big assumption and £££ risk to be realised if Leicester remodelling isn't forthcoming (which, at present, has no fundimg or commitment behind it)

Yes a big assumption.
But if something is done in the medium term which doesn't fit in with aspirations for electrification and suit future capacity issues, at such time as electrification might be considered any reworking that's then needed here could knock it on the head.
But we don't want it being added into the Ivanhoe project and jeopardising that before there is any benefit at all.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Skipton to Colne is already been through a feasibility study and has proved feasible and commercially viable and is now developing further and comes under accelerating existing proposals

The Isle of Wight branch lines are from Shanklin to Ventnor and Smallbrook to Newport.

 

[fgwrich]

I'm surprised Leicester is near capacity. Two island platforms seems quite uncramped for the of IC services and cross country routes that cross there.

If Fawley manages to lift the ban on third rail extension, it will be beneficial for the whole Southern.

I doubt Fawley will managed to lift the ban on the Third Rail extension unfortunately, IIRC the original plan was to change the direction of some of the "Salisbury 6" services down to Fawley using the 158. As there is also a west facing bay at Southampton Central, a 158 operated shuttle could fit into that too if it became a simpler truncated shuttle.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Abbey line never went to Hatfield. The Abbey line was built as the start of a loop line to serve Luton, before the Midland's falling out with the GNR caused them to build an extension south from Bedford to their own terminus at St. Pancras which killed off the plan. No idea where the intention to rejoin the LNWR was, but that's why it points north at Abbey station. The GNR built a branch to meet it from Hatfield, and they had a north-facing junction on the southern outskirts of the station.

...short version: you'd be reopening two branches not one.

You can get from St Albans to Hatfield by a very frequent bus service - or cycle down the old branch formation.- which is the Alban Way ! (and well used too) - the LNW and GNR at the Abbey were effectively 2 seperate railways and there were never (bar very rare specials) , any interworking.

 

[Mikey C]

That's exactly what it was. Obfuscation and spin to try and get the plebs talking about something fluffy. There is no structure, thought or plan to any of this Anyone want odds on these schemes happening?

By the way the plan failed. Literally no one in the area in question is talking about a new station at Horden. There is actual, real, burning anger in the north east about how Cummings has behaved. The dualing of the A66 is something i have supported and advocated for many years. It is great news. No one cares today.

I doubt that they rushed these announcements to try and deflect the Cummings story

Whichever minister is handling the briefing, they try to make the announcements relevant to them, given them some positive stuff to say alongside the gloomy stuff. Yesterday was Schapps, so his positive stuff would be transport related, it's just unfortunate (from his point of view) that he happened to be doing the briefing on a day when nobody was interested

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Skipton to Colne is already been through a feasibility study and has proved feasible and commercially viable ...

But not to DfT's satisfaction or agreement yet; (now very unlikely now the the allowable benefits for transformational schemes was recently reduced). Sorry, but Skipton - Colne is a poor answer in search of a problem.

 

[Bald Rick]

When will the rebuilding of these lines start or do they have to go through a couple more rounds first?
Be ideal if the fleetwood line, the Buxton to matlock and the reopening of woodhead route be in the next, but that would be a long shot

If any of the new stations schemes have a decent business case, and if the timetable can be worked to get trains to stop there, then 3-5 years at best.

For new lines involving existing freight only lines that are in use or have been very recently, then a similar timescale.

For new lines that entail any form of new construction, 6-8 years at best.

My thoughts/opinions/questions:

1) The Abbey line - Surely there is a case for reopening back to Hatfield, avoiding the need to travel into London and back out again to get to Hatfield?

No case at all. It was only ever a single track, many of the bridges have gone, and notably there’s several housing estates, the Galleria, and the A1 on the formation. Besides, there’s 6 buses an hour that actually take you where people want to get to (St Albans City Centre, and not half a mile south of it 50 metres down hill), or its 25 minutes on a bike.

Skipton to Colne is already been through a feasibility study and has proved feasible and commercially viable and is now developing further and comes under accelerating existing proposals

The back of an envelope initial work showed that it is possible to build in engineering terms. I don’t think anyone doubted that. Not this wasn’t a full blown feasibility study - that would be several million for a project of this size. Note that no costing exercise seems to have been done, or if it has, it’s being kept quiet. Not surprising, as it will be north of £300m.

But no one has ever demonstrated that it would be commercially viable, and nor will they be able to. It patently wouldn’t; a significant majority of lines in the country are not commercially viable, and they have the distinct advantage of already being built. They will also struggle to demonstrate that it will be socio-economically viable including all wider economic benefits.

But not to DfT's satisfaction or agreement yet; (now very unlikely now the the allowable benefits for transformational schemes was recently reduced). Sorry, but Skipton - Colne is a poor answer in search of a problem.

Spot on.

 

[Wharfe106]

On this website for the last few years or so, there has been long discussions on the reopening of the Colne to Skipton line, with both freight and passenger traffic being discussed. Would there be any reason why that particular aspiration has not appeared on this new list?

It was announced a few days ago that Skipton-Colne had moved forward to the 'develop' stage, so it is not a "new idea" as far as this process is concerned, it, like Ashington in the north east, is ahead of the pack and pressing froward....

 

[mwmbwls]

A thought comes to me. Somebody should be proposing reopening the lifted two tracks down the Sheaf valley from Dore into Sheffield. They were removed in the Beeching era and the DfT may have a pot of funds to restore his cuts. Oops, I'm digressing! For another day.

Including the drop you off at the front door underpass? I'm regressing.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Do the unsuccessful bids get reconsidered in the second round (closing date 19th June), have to be resubmitted or are just rejected out of hand? Do they get any feedback to assist - or is just seemingly an arbitrary decision by the DfT? Some of the choices are curious and obviously political - supporting the 'Red Wall' constituencies - and the only full track restoration is for the IoW. Bury - Heywood - Castleton was proposed as a pilot 'tram-train' project by TfGM last year, so there is a conflict there.

 

[Tobbes]

It was announced a few days ago that Skipton-Colne had moved forward to the 'develop' stage, so it is not a "new idea" as far as this process is concerned, it, like Ashington in the north east, is ahead of the pack and pressing froward....

I share @Bald Rick view that Skipton - Colne is unlikely to be commercially viable by itself, but like BordersRail, this one will be an explicitly political reopening if it happens - nothing wrong with that per se, as government is about making choices - but you'd be hard pressed to show that the BCR on £300m+ was going to put Skipton - Colne was going to put it ahead of a pile of more valuable schemes. NB, none of this is claiming that if Skipton-Colne had never closed we'd be talking about closing now on the basis that it is loss-making (ie, requires subsidy) - if that was the case, then most of the rural network would be a goner, and in my view, the country would be much poorer for it.

 

[mwmbwls]

The Abbey line never went to Hatfield. The Abbey line was built as the start of a loop line to serve Luton, before the Midland's falling out with the GNR caused them to build an extension south from Bedford to their own terminus at St. Pancras which killed off the plan. No idea where the intention to rejoin the LNWR was, but that's why it points north at Abbey station. The GNR built a branch to meet it from Hatfield, and they had a north-facing junction on the southern outskirts of the station.

...short version: you'd be reopening two branches not one.

The old GNR station is just off London Road in St Albans and has been converted into a nursery. the old station site has been lost to development. So any development would begin with "First obtain multiple compulsory purchase orders". That's not impossible but for a scheme designed to boost Government MPs - not guaranteed to make them popular. Nobody disagrees that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs - unless it your nest EGG they are breaking.

 

[Wharfe106]

You can tell I was distracted when writing this.
At best, this funding will get an initial feasibility review for transport improvements on the corridor.
My understanding is that Skipton-Colne is more advanced. I think that they are either tail end of GRIP2 or a bit further forward, so need a lot more funding than the Ideas Fund offers

Quick question for those who may know. Has the infrastructure to the south of Hellifield got the flexibility to terminate trains in both platforma?

You're quite right with regard to Skipton to Colne, and SELRAP has said in the past few days there are studies underway to take the process forward.
With regard to Hellifield, while regular passenger services can be introduced from Clitheroe without capital expenditure, but obviously they would probably need revenue support as does most things in the north, passenger trains cannot reverse in Hellifield station without additional signalling and track. So yes, to respond to another post, going forward to Settle makes a lot of sense and opens up Yorkshire Dales better for passengers from, for example, Bolton and Blackburn, as well as opening up commuting opportunities, and access to Manchester for sorts of reasons. But there isn't a turn back at Settle either. I know someone who's been working on this behind-the-scenes for sometime, and it's remarkable where you can get to with one additional unit!!
But agreed, this is a very small step forward for the 12 ideas, there are more rounds to come so no one should get carried away at the prospect of progress on the ground for any particular scheme, for a long time yet. If at all.

 

[Wharfe106]

I share @Bald Rick view that Skipton - Colne is unlikely to be commercially viable by itself, but like BordersRail, this one will be an explicitly political reopening if it happens - nothing wrong with that per se, as government is about making choices - but you'd be hard pressed to show that the BCR on £300m+ was going to put Skipton - Colne was going to put it ahead of a pile of more valuable schemes. NB, none of this is claiming that if Skipton-Colne had never closed we'd be talking about closing now on the basis that it is loss-making (ie, requires subsidy) - if that was the case, then most of the rural network would be a goner, and in my view, the country would be much poorer for it.

I doubt there is any re-opened line that would be commercially viable in the sense being talked about, and what has recently been said publicly about S-C indicates they are specifically looking at reducing the likely cost. But the benefits of any such scheme go far wider than BCR, and there is the political angle too as stated, so don't write anything off just because it seems to cost a lot, when there are jobs, connectivity, green issues, regeneration and politics in the mix.

 

[Mikey C]

"Commercial viability" isn't everything, as if it was the government during the last 50 years would have shut several more branch lines...

 

[PupCuff]

Is it still the case that the ELR had aspirations for a terminal station in Castleton on the other side of the road bridge to that of the existing Castleton station, in the same land area originally occupied by the Blue Pits station of the Manchester and Leeds Railway.

There are currently non-stop services from Manchester to Rochdale en route to Leeds that will not wish to be be inconvenienced by such a described "trundle".

The Castleton East Jn to Rochdale section is, as you point out, already in situ as part of the mainline network so the section where the proposed new service would share with existing mainline services would be no different than any other train using the network so such trundle shouldn't impact them. The risk of a trundle is on the ELR metals, ideally you'd need to look at linespeed improvements - from memory it's on a pretty good alignment with a decent standard of P-Way so if the will (or, perhaps, read, money) was there I'm sure that could be achieved.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It would also be another little footstep towards Woodhead.

What would you do when you get to the Woodhead tunnel area given that the original 1840s narrow bore tunnels are no longer usable and the three mile long "new" 1950s tunnel now has the 400 kv (?) power supply cables running through them?

 

[TheWalrus]

Really like the idea of Wellington and Cullompton. I had the idea for these a few years ago. Would be good to see these stops included onnthe Paddington-Exeter semi-fast to help justify increasing these to hourly and extend some Cardiff-Taunton to Exeter calling there also. Maybe extend one Paddington-Bristol tph to Weston to take on stops Bristol TM-Weston and speed up the Exeter-Cardiff to make it a more attractive and realistic option for travel to Bristol and South Wales.

 

[DarloRich]

I doubt that they rushed these announcements to try and deflect the Cummings story

Whichever minister is handling the briefing, they try to make the announcements relevant to them, given them some positive stuff to say alongside the gloomy stuff. Yesterday was Schapps, so his positive stuff would be transport related, it's just unfortunate (from his point of view) that he happened to be doing the briefing on a day when nobody was interested

You can't, honestly, be that naive. Surely? It was the most obvious attempt a a fillibuster you will ever see.

The only people talking about the railway part of that briefing are here. No one in the real world is

 

[Jamesrob637]

Wellington and Collumpton seem most suited to heavy rail. I certainly can't think of anything else that would suit !

Better put loops in - there are loops near Tiverton Parkway, however the logic of building a station at that point is nil - it's only half an hour's walk from the station if you were to walk alongside the tracks!

 

[yorksrob]

Better put loops in - there are loops near Tiverton Parkway, however the logic of building a station at that point is nil - it's only half an hour's walk from the station if you were to walk alongside the tracks!

That sounds like what used to be Tiverton Junction station. It used to have a direct route to the centre of Tiverton.

 

[Jamesrob637]

That sounds like what used to be Tiverton Junction station. It used to have a direct route to the centre of Tiverton.

Well of 20 years I lived in Devon and a Yorkshireman tells me summat about the county's railways. Thanks! But the line to Tiverton didn't feature I don't think.

 

[mwmbwls]

With regard to Hellifield, while regular passenger services can be introduced from Clitheroe without capital expenditure, but obviously they would probably need revenue support as does most things in the north, passenger trains cannot reverse in Hellifield station without additional signalling and track. So yes, to respond to another post, going forward to Settle makes a lot of sense and opens up Yorkshire Dales better for passengers from, for example, Bolton and Blackburn, as well as opening up commuting opportunities, and access to Manchester for sorts of reasons. But there isn't a turn back at Settle either. I know someone who's been working on this behind-the-scenes for sometime, and it's remarkable where you can get to with one additional unit!!
But agreed, this is a very small step forward for the 12 ideas, there are more rounds to come so no one should get carried away at the prospect of progress on the ground for any particular scheme, for a long time yet. If at all.

Is it possible to reverse at Ribblehead?

 

[S&CLER]

That sounds like what used to be Tiverton Junction station. It used to have a direct route to the centre of Tiverton.

I think Tiverton Parkway is on the site of the old Sampford Peverell, not Tiverton Junction.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it possible to reverse at Ribblehead?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C35768/2020-07-27/detailed is how it is done (but Ribblehead appears to be 26 minutes from Hellifield).

Seems to me that it might be possible to use one unit to extend two-hourly from Clitheroe to Ribblehead with the train in between continuing to reverse at Clitheroe.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It was announced a few days ago that Skipton-Colne had moved forward to the 'develop' stage, so it is not a "new idea" as far as this process is concerned, it, like Ashington in the north east, is ahead of the pack and pressing froward....

There is an ever so slight difference in that the Ashington line (maybe a broken railway in terms of track and signalling condition - but it is actually a railway) - wholly restoreable. Fairly easily too if someone takes a hard line on project development and delivery.

Which sort of sits in an urban area with a clear need to link up to a major city. Not noticed that around Earby ..

 

[ChiefPlanner]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C35768/2020-07-27/detailed is how it is done (but Ribblehead appears to be 26 minutes from Hellifield).

Seems to me that it might be possible to use one unit to extend two-hourly from Clitheroe to Ribblehead with the train in between continuing to reverse at Clitheroe.

Maybe - but who is that going to carry ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe - but who is that going to carry ?

I suspect more people than one terminating at Hellifield no doubt making a poor connection to/from S&C services. Hellifield station is in the middle of, er, a field, so is not a destination in its own right, it's a classic junction station. There is a village but it's not a destination, really.

Quite a lot of fresh air, though, to be honest, I suspect. You'd be better making DalesRail all year round and running on Saturday and Bank Holiday Mondays as well as Sundays, maybe also a Friday evening northbound for weekends away. The demand, to the extent that it exists, is pretty much all tourism.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I suspect more people than one terminating at Hellifield no doubt making a poor connection to/from S&C services. Hellifield station is in the middle of, er, a field, so is not a destination in its own right, it's a classic junction station. There is a village but it's not a destination, really.

Quite a lot of fresh air, though, to be honest, I suspect. You'd be better making DalesRail all year round and running on Saturday and Bank Holiday Mondays as well as Sundays, maybe also a Friday evening northbound for weekends away. The demand, to the extent that it exists, is pretty much all tourism.

In the new realistic world - running window gazing , optional services , might be just a service too far. No.